Phuong Thao Vietnamese, Sunnyvale

[Jed]

A friend and I tried Phuong Thao on Sunnyvale's S. Murphy "restaurant
row" a week ago Friday.

We arrived just before noon and, though plenty of tables were already
filled, there were plenty of empty tables. It filled up by 12:15.

The place has the feel of a bistro or an old fashioned San Francisco
diner with the long narrow room opening on one end to S. Murphy and on
the other to the parking lot behind. It was noisy but not conversation
preventing noisy.

Service was quick and attentive as you would expect from a place
frequented at lunch by hurried tech folk from nearby businesses.

I ordered the Rare Beef Salad ($10.50), my friend ordered a chicken
curry, and we shared an order of vegetarian spring rolls.

The spring rolls and dipping sauce were very good with a burst of
basil and other herbs, crunchy vegetabes, and a very chewy ingredient
that was almost like bacon in tast but, since these were vegetarian, I
assume it wasn't meat. I didn't take the time to find out what it was.

My Rare Beef Salad was good. "Ceviche" prepared, thin beef slices
layered on top of rice wine marinated red onions, carrots, and daikon
with thin slices of lime with skin that could be eaten skin and all.

I liked it, but I am not a great fan of vinegary dishes. I might order
it again but will probably explore the menu on future visits.

My friend rated the chicken curry good but nothing special. It had the
look of a typical stir fry.

Phuong Thao is worth a visit but not a "must go" back rating.

Any recommendations for "must try" places on S. Murphy?

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 26, 6:12 pm, Jed <***@plenipôtentiary.com.invalid> wrote:

> Phuong Thao is worth a visit but not a "must go" back rating.
>
> Any recommendations for "must try" places on S. Murphy?

Dish Dash is the only place I'd ever go back to.

[Eddie Grove]

***@gmail.com writes:

> On Mar 26, 6:12 pm, Jed <***@plenipôtentiary.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Phuong Thao is worth a visit but not a "must go" back rating.
> >
> > Any recommendations for "must try" places on S. Murphy?
>
> Dish Dash is the only place I'd ever go back to.

I particularly like their "spinach variation", which I believe is only
available for lunch.


Eddie

[Al Eisner]

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> On Mar 26, 6:12 pm, Jed <***@plenipôtentiary.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Phuong Thao is worth a visit but not a "must go" back rating.
>>
>> Any recommendations for "must try" places on S. Murphy?
>
> Dish Dash is the only place I'd ever go back to.

How does it compare with places in Palo Alto or Mt. View which serve
eastern-Mediterranean food?

I tried once to go to Dish Dash, but (in a previously-described fiasco)
failed to find any restaurants on any of the portions of Murphy Street
I managed to notice on my map.
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <***@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>,
Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>How does it compare with places in Palo Alto or Mt. View which
>serve eastern-Mediterranean food?

The menu at Dishdash is quite different, although you can find some
overlap if you try. It is the sister restaurant of Fattoush in SF.

http://www.dishdash.net/

[Al Eisner]

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, Todd Michel McComb wrote:

> In article <***@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>,
> Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> How does it compare with places in Palo Alto or Mt. View which
>> serve eastern-Mediterranean food?
>
> The menu at Dishdash is quite different, although you can find some
> overlap if you try. It is the sister restaurant of Fattoush in SF.
>
> http://www.dishdash.net/

Thanks. I'll definitely have to make another attempt to overcome
Murphy (Street)'s Law.
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[Tim May]

In article
<***@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>, Al
Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
>
> > In article <***@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>,
> > Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> How does it compare with places in Palo Alto or Mt. View which
> >> serve eastern-Mediterranean food?
> >
> > The menu at Dishdash is quite different, although you can find some
> > overlap if you try. It is the sister restaurant of Fattoush in SF.
> >
> > http://www.dishdash.net/
>
> Thanks. I'll definitely have to make another attempt to overcome
> Murphy (Street)'s Law.

First, understand that "Murphy Avenue," as discussed here, has been
squeezed down to about half a normal city block. It once ran all all
the way from the train tracks to El Camino Real, a couple of miles,
when I moved to Sunnyvale in 1975. City managers condemned many blocks
of Murphy Avenue, invited the bulldozers in, and built an
immediately-unsuccessful "Sunnyvale Town Center." For most of 1976-78
the bulldozers tore down the existing restaurants, fish shops, hardware
stores, and whatnot. In their place, the concrete pile that was empty
most of every day, home to Spencer's Gifts, Waldenbooks, and Montgomery
Ward's. Oh, and some small stores selling carved trinkets, school
pennants, and candy.

Second, understand that "Murphy Avenue," the actual street-level
restaurant street we are talking about here, is squeezed-in between a
couple of Developer-Sponsored City Shopping Districts. To wit:

-- the Town and Country Village, a clone of the version that was torn
down to make room for Santana Oyo Como Va Village across from Westfield
Village Shoppingtown Valley Fair Mall in Santa Clara and the (as yet)
not torn down Town and Country Termite-Ridden Shoppingtown Mall across
from Stanford

and

The Sunnyvale Town Center, a depressing collection of knick-knack
shops, plus Montgomery Ward's, first opened when I lived four blocks
away, around 1978. It has since been gutted a couple of times. The
first gutting involved building a two-level parking structure in front.
The current gutting involves demolishing much of the STC and the
parking structure and (I understand) creating an "Authentic Extension
of Historic Murphy Avenue." Perhaps Disney Animatronic figures of
Gordon Moore and Charlie Sporck will grace this recreation.

Frankly, were I you, an outsider, I would not even bother trying to
learn to navigate through the failed city development projects to get
to the remaining free enterprise core. Locals know it, but outsiders
have to fight through through the "Official Town Center" (often spelled
"Centre," to aid in marketing) bullshit glitz.

Meanwhile, a few miles north, Castro Street in Mountain View never
suffered city-managed "redevelopment" (translation: bribes) on the same
scale. So the Street was not bookended by "Town and Country Center" or
"Mountain View Town Center." The bullshit-developed "town center" was
an enclosed mall built near Central Expressway, near San Antonio, not
far from the Milk Pail, complete with a bubbling brook inside. And it
had the same bullshit stores Sunnyvale Town Center had. It failed, was
torn down in the late 80s, and is now high-density housing.

So between Castro Street in Mountain View and Murphy Avenue in
Sunnyvale, guess which one is thriving and which one looks like a
government housing project?

"Sunnyvale, the Planned City, the Cabrini Green of the West Coast!"

--Tim May

[Peter Lawrence]

Tim May wrote:
>
> So between Castro Street in Mountain View and Murphy Avenue in
> Sunnyvale, guess which one is thriving and which one looks like a
> government housing project?
>
> "Sunnyvale, the Planned City, the Cabrini Green of the West Coast!"
>
> --Tim May

Gertrude Stein once wrote about the city of her childhood, the late
1800's Oakland, that "There is no there there." I never quite
understood what she meant until the year I lived in Sunnyvale. Then I
knew exactly what she meant.

"There is no there there" is a perfect description of Sunnyvale today.


- Peter

[Geoff Miller]

Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> writes:

> "There is no there there" is a perfect description
> of Sunnyvale today.


Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."



Geoff

--
Fuck the environment.
There. I said it.

[Peter Lawrence]

Geoff Miller wrote:
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> writes:
>
>> "There is no there there" is a perfect description
>> of Sunnyvale today.
>
>
> Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."

I haven't lived in Milpitas nor do I know any friends who live there,
but what always made me think about Gertrude Stein's quote and Sunnyvale
was that Sunnyvale didn't have any sense of "place" nor any discernible
civic pride, let alone any sense of neighborhood within the residential
areas. People just lived there because I guess they had to live somewhere.

Even the other suburban cities that surround Sunnyvale (Santa Clara,
Cupertino, Mountain View, Los Altos) had a better sense of place, a
distinct character or vibe that one could pick up when living or just
visiting those other cities.

But Sunnyvale was such a sterile antiseptic place with absolutely no
character whatsoever, it truly felt that there was no there there.

- Peter

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 28, 5:22 pm, Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:

> I haven't lived in Milpitas nor do I know any friends who live there,
> but what always made me think about Gertrude Stein's quote and Sunnyvale
> was that Sunnyvale didn't have any sense of "place" nor any discernible
> civic pride, let alone any sense of neighborhood within the residential
> areas. People just lived there because I guess they had to live somewhere.
>
> Even the other suburban cities that surround Sunnyvale (Santa Clara,
> Cupertino, Mountain View, Los Altos) had a better sense of place, a
> distinct character or vibe that one could pick up when living or just
> visiting those other cities.

Meh. All the El Camino burbs flow indistinctly from one to the next.
Santa Clara gutted its downtown and replaced it with Franklin Mall --
two dive bars and a decent Japanese restaurant, a Thai joint and Mio
Vicino. Mountain View has a good thing in Castro Street, their arts
center, and Shoreline.

[Peter Lawrence]

***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 28, 5:22 pm, Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't lived in Milpitas nor do I know any friends who live there,
>> but what always made me think about Gertrude Stein's quote and Sunnyvale
>> was that Sunnyvale didn't have any sense of "place" nor any discernible
>> civic pride, let alone any sense of neighborhood within the residential
>> areas. People just lived there because I guess they had to live somewhere.
>>
>> Even the other suburban cities that surround Sunnyvale (Santa Clara,
>> Cupertino, Mountain View, Los Altos) had a better sense of place, a
>> distinct character or vibe that one could pick up when living or just
>> visiting those other cities.
>
> Meh. All the El Camino burbs flow indistinctly from one to the next.
> Santa Clara gutted its downtown and replaced it with Franklin Mall --
> two dive bars and a decent Japanese restaurant, a Thai joint and Mio
> Vicino. Mountain View has a good thing in Castro Street, their arts
> center, and Shoreline.

A city is more than its shops, its downtown (or lack of one), parks, or
business districts or boulevards. To me it's more about its people, its
community spirit and activism (or lack of) and its neighborhoods.

For example, to a causal observer Sunnyvale and Santa Clara may appear
to be about the same, but beyond their surface similarities they're
quite different communities.

The residents of Santa Clara tend to have a lot more civic pride, their
neighborhoods are a lot more cohesive in the sense that neighbors know
their neighbors better and tend to socialize more with each other
including having annual block parties. Santa Clara has a lot more of a
"Midwestern feel" than other cities of its size in the Bay Area
including its neighbor, Sunnyvale.

Los Altos and Cupertino also have a lot more sense of a community than
Sunnyvale, IMHO.

- Peter

[isw]

In article <vZfHj.36432$***@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>,
Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:

> Geoff Miller wrote:
> > Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> writes:
> >
> >> "There is no there there" is a perfect description
> >> of Sunnyvale today.
> >
> >
> > Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."
>
> I haven't lived in Milpitas nor do I know any friends who live there,
> but what always made me think about Gertrude Stein's quote and Sunnyvale
> was that Sunnyvale didn't have any sense of "place" nor any discernible
> civic pride, let alone any sense of neighborhood within the residential
> areas. People just lived there because I guess they had to live somewhere.

Sounds just like the San Fernando valley, except a lot smaller.

Isaac

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 28, 8:17 pm, isw <***@witzend.com> wrote:
> In article <vZfHj.36432$***@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>,
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Geoff Miller wrote:
> > > Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> writes:
>
> > >> "There is no there there" is a perfect description
> > >> of Sunnyvale today.
>
> > > Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."
>
> > I haven't lived in Milpitas nor do I know any friends who live there,
> > but what always made me think about Gertrude Stein's quote and Sunnyvale
> > was that Sunnyvale didn't have any sense of "place" nor any discernible
> > civic pride, let alone any sense of neighborhood within the residential
> > areas. People just lived there because I guess they had to live somewhere.
>
> Sounds just like the San Fernando valley, except a lot smaller.

Sunnyvale neighborhoods lack the SFV street banners warning drug
buyers and sellers that they are under police surveillance. But
Sunnyvale has an amazing number of mobile home parks.

[Peter Lawrence]

isw wrote:
> In article <vZfHj.36432$***@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>,
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>> Geoff Miller wrote:
>>> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> "There is no there there" is a perfect description
>>>> of Sunnyvale today.
>>>
>>> Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."
>>
>> I haven't lived in Milpitas nor do I know any friends who live there,
>> but what always made me think about Gertrude Stein's quote and Sunnyvale
>> was that Sunnyvale didn't have any sense of "place" nor any discernible
>> civic pride, let alone any sense of neighborhood within the residential
>> areas. People just lived there because I guess they had to live somewhere.
>
> Sounds just like the San Fernando valley, except a lot smaller.

I think that's a pretty accurate comparison.

- Peter

[Michael Sierchio]

Peter Lawrence wrote:
> isw wrote:

>> Sounds just like the San Fernando valley, except a lot smaller.
>
> I think that's a pretty accurate comparison.

That's what you get when you take agricultural land and
turn it into a suburb, which is what's happened in both
places.

- M

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 29, 7:06 am, Michael Sierchio <kudzu-***@tenebras.com>
wrote:
> Peter Lawrence wrote:
> > isw wrote:
> >> Sounds just like the San Fernando valley, except a lot smaller.
>
> > I think that's a pretty accurate comparison.
>
> That's what you get when you take agricultural land and
> turn it into a suburb, which is what's happened in both
> places.

Almost without exception, suburbs have been built on agricultural
land. The original Levittown arose amid potato fields, for example.
So there has to be something else in common.

[Peter Lawrence]

Michael Sierchio wrote:
> Peter Lawrence wrote:
>> isw wrote:
>
>>> Sounds just like the San Fernando valley, except a lot smaller.
>>
>> I think that's a pretty accurate comparison.
>
> That's what you get when you take agricultural land and
> turn it into a suburb, which is what's happened in both
> places.

Oh Please! How many cities *have not* been built on what was *once*
agricultural land?

Both Oakland and Berkeley were mostly agricultural land. So was New
York City and Chicago.

San Francisco and Washington DC are two exceptions to this rule. (San
Francisco being built mostly on hills, on landfill and over sand dunes
and DC being built over former swampland.) But most cities in the U.S.
(big and small) were built over what once was agricultural land.

- Peter

[Julian Macassey]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:54:12 -0700, Peter Lawrence
<***@aol.com> wrote:
>
> San Francisco and Washington DC are two exceptions to this rule. (San
> Francisco being built mostly on hills, on landfill and over sand dunes
> and DC being built over former swampland.)

Washington DC is still swampland, just a different kind
of swamp.


--
An emboldened al Qaeda with access to Iraq's oil resources could pursue
its ambitions to acquire weapons of mass destruction to attack America
and other free nations. - G. W. Bush 19 March 2008

[Julian Macassey]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:24:48 -0000, Geoff Miller <***@lava.net> wrote:
>
>
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> writes:
>
>> "There is no there there" is a perfect description
>> of Sunnyvale today.
>
>
> Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."

Valencia, California is the city without a soul. It has
three off ramps on the 5 Freeway that all go to the same shopping
mall.



--
An emboldened al Qaeda with access to Iraq's oil resources could pursue
its ambitions to acquire weapons of mass destruction to attack America
and other free nations. - G. W. Bush 19 March 2008

[Geoff Miller]

Julian Macassey <***@tele.com> writes:

: Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."

> Valencia, California is the city without a soul. It has three
> off ramps on the 5 Freeway that all go to the same shopping
> mall.


Sylmar and San Fernando struck me the same way. Not the shopping-
mall part, but the "soulless" part. (Didn't you live in that area
at one point?)



Geoff

--
"I know! How about combining a compressed-air catapult
with the trap? To unload the trap, you would fire the
coon into the air like a skeet." -- Alan Gore

[Julian Macassey]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:49:02 -0000, Geoff Miller <***@lava.net> wrote:
>
>
> Julian Macassey <***@tele.com> writes:
>
>: Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."
>
>> Valencia, California is the city without a soul. It has three
>> off ramps on the 5 Freeway that all go to the same shopping
>> mall.
>
>
> Sylmar and San Fernando struck me the same way. Not the shopping-
> mall part, but the "soulless" part. (Didn't you live in that area
> at one point?)

I have worked in Sylmar and Valencia. San Fernando is and
has been for decades are really dangerous area. It is part of
LAPD's notorious "Foothill Division" - The guys that gave Rodney
King the LAPD hospitality treatment.

But I wouldn't live in any of those areas. Especially
Valencia. At least Sylmar has some non chain restaurants, and
some local colour.


--
An emboldened al Qaeda with access to Iraq's oil resources could pursue
its ambitions to acquire weapons of mass destruction to attack America
and other free nations. - G. W. Bush 19 March 2008

[Michael Sierchio]

Julian Macassey wrote:

> But I wouldn't live in any of those areas. Especially
> Valencia. At least Sylmar has some non chain restaurants, and
> some local colour.

Valencia is very near Newhall, which is an interesting enclave
of LA wealth seeking to ride horses and rusticate. And then
there's Saugus. Not bad places if the local Latino culture
is accessible to you.

- M

[Peter Lawrence]

Michael Sierchio wrote:
> Julian Macassey wrote:
>>
>> But I wouldn't live in any of those areas. Especially
>> Valencia. At least Sylmar has some non chain restaurants, and
>> some local colour.
>
> Valencia is very near Newhall, which is an interesting enclave
> of LA wealth seeking to ride horses and rusticate. And then
> there's Saugus. Not bad places if the local Latino culture
> is accessible to you.

And all three communities (Valencia, Newhall and Saugus) plus Canyon
Country are now part of the city of Santa Clarita (the Fremont of
Southern California).

- Peter

[Al Eisner]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008, Julian Macassey wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:49:02 -0000, Geoff Miller <***@lava.net> wrote:
>>
>> Julian Macassey <***@tele.com> writes:
>>
>> : Milpitas, even more so. I call it "the town without a soul."
>>
>>> Valencia, California is the city without a soul. It has three
>>> off ramps on the 5 Freeway that all go to the same shopping
>>> mall.
>>
>> Sylmar and San Fernando struck me the same way. Not the shopping-
>> mall part, but the "soulless" part. (Didn't you live in that area
>> at one point?)
>
> I have worked in Sylmar and Valencia. San Fernando is and
> has been for decades are really dangerous area. It is part of
> LAPD's notorious "Foothill Division" - The guys that gave Rodney
> King the LAPD hospitality treatment.
>
> But I wouldn't live in any of those areas. Especially
> Valencia. At least Sylmar has some non chain restaurants, and
> some local colour.

Isn't Valencia where Magic Mountain is? (Not that I've ever been there.)

And (ObFood) isn't there a first-rate BBQ joint in San Fernando? Or am
I thinking of some place a bit south of there? (That one I've been to.)
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[Julian Macassey]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:34:55 -0700, Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008, Julian Macassey wrote:
>
>>
>> I have worked in Sylmar and Valencia. San Fernando is and
>> has been for decades are really dangerous area. It is part of
>> LAPD's notorious "Foothill Division" - The guys that gave Rodney
>> King the LAPD hospitality treatment.
>>
>> But I wouldn't live in any of those areas. Especially
>> Valencia. At least Sylmar has some non chain restaurants, and
>> some local colour.
>
> Isn't Valencia where Magic Mountain is? (Not that I've ever been there.)

Yup, Tragic Mountain.
>
> And (ObFood) isn't there a first-rate BBQ joint in San Fernando? Or am
> I thinking of some place a bit south of there? (That one I've been to.)

Could you be thinking of Dr. Hogly Wogly's Tyler Texas
BBQ?

They are in Van Nuys.

Not a great neighbourhood, but worth the trip.


--
You can't trust people who have such terrible food. - Jaques
Chirac about the British.

[Jed]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 03:18:01 GMT, Julian Macassey <***@tele.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:34:55 -0700, Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008, Julian Macassey wrote:

>> And (ObFood) isn't there a first-rate BBQ joint in San Fernando? Or am
>> I thinking of some place a bit south of there? (That one I've been to.)
>
> Could you be thinking of Dr. Hogly Wogly's Tyler Texas
>BBQ?
>
> They are in Van Nuys.
>
> Not a great neighbourhood, but worth the trip.

They're still around then? Last time I was there was in 1976 or so.

[Serene Sprat]

Peter Lawrence wrote:
> Tim May wrote:
>> So between Castro Street in Mountain View and Murphy Avenue in
>> Sunnyvale, guess which one is thriving and which one looks like a
>> government housing project?
>>
>> "Sunnyvale, the Planned City, the Cabrini Green of the West Coast!"
>>
>> --Tim May
>
> Gertrude Stein once wrote about the city of her childhood, the late
> 1800's Oakland, that "There is no there there." I never quite
> understood what she meant until the year I lived in Sunnyvale. Then I
> knew exactly what she meant.

She was talking about the "you can't go home again" aspect of "going
back there"; she had returned to Oakland on a tour and went to look
for her old house, and it was gone.

Serene

[Ciccio]

On Mar 28, 11:26 am, Serene Sprat <***@serenepages.org> wrote:

> Peter Lawrence wrote:

> > Gertrude Stein once wrote about the city of her childhood, the late
> > 1800's Oakland, that "There is no there there." I never quite
> > understood what she meant until the year I lived in Sunnyvale. Then I
> > knew exactly what she meant.
>
> She was talking about the "you can't go home again" aspect of "going
> back there"; she had returned to Oakland on a tour and went to look
> for her old house, and it was gone.

Yep, that's the story. Still I bastardize it by saying if there is no
there in Oakland, then there is REALLY no there there in San Jose. In
fact, more recently I've been having occasions to become reacquainted
with Fresno after many years of ignoring it...Not much diff between
the two, except population size and housing prices, which are much
more reasonable in Fresno. Which makes sense,
location...location...location...SJ is closer to SF than is Fresno.

As for Sunnyvale, you can cut it, lift it and drop it in Orange County
and it would fit just fine.

Ciccio

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 28, 12:01 pm, Ciccio <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> Yep, that's the story. Still I bastardize it by saying if there is no
> there in Oakland, then there is REALLY no there there in San Jose. In
> fact, more recently I've been having occasions to become reacquainted
> with Fresno after many years of ignoring it...Not much diff between
> the two, except population size and housing prices, which are much
> more reasonable in Fresno. Which makes sense,
> location...location...location...SJ is closer to SF than is Fresno.

You've got to be kidding. Fresno is Stockton, not San Jose. Fresno has
a three-way gang war right now, among the Nortenos, the Surenos, and
the Bulldogs.

Recent-Fresno-news-story-you-would-never-see-in-San-Jose:

Hundreds Arrested In Fresno Gang Sweep
Bust Follows Slaying Of Teen

POSTED: 11:04 am PDT March 17, 2008

FRESNO, Calif. -- Police said 260 people are facing charges after a
weeklong crackdown on gangs.

Investigators said after a 15-year-old boy was shot to death earlier
this month, they discovered a feud was under way between two criminal
street gangs.

In a sweep that began March 9 and ended Sunday, police said officers
from multiple units made 124 felony arrests and 136 misdemeanor
arrests.

Police said they also impounded 135 vehicles and issued 293 traffic
citations.

[Ciccio]

On Mar 28, 6:00 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 28, 12:01 pm, Ciccio <***@comcast.net> wrote:


> Recent-Fresno-news-story-you-would-never-see-in-San-Jose:

Oh please, there has been similar gang activity in SJ. But OK, Fresno
is the same soulless wasteland as SJ, but with a few areas with higher
crime rates.

Ciccio

[Julian Macassey]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:01:30 -0700 (PDT), Ciccio
<***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> As for Sunnyvale, you can cut it, lift it and drop it in Orange County
> and it would fit just fine.

When I first drove through Sunnyvale, noting franchise
restaurants on every corner I thought to myself, "This is Orange
County."



--
An emboldened al Qaeda with access to Iraq's oil resources could pursue
its ambitions to acquire weapons of mass destruction to attack America
and other free nations. - G. W. Bush 19 March 2008

[Wayne E. Amacher]

Julian Macassey <***@tele.com> wrote:
: On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:01:30 -0700 (PDT), Ciccio
: <***@comcast.net> wrote:
:>
:> As for Sunnyvale, you can cut it, lift it and drop it in Orange County
:> and it would fit just fine.

: When I first drove through Sunnyvale, noting franchise
: restaurants on every corner I thought to myself, "This is Orange
: County."


The last time I had a stopover in London (November 2006) I took the
underground from Heathrow to Picadilly Circus. All along the street were
American Franchise Restaurants; McDonalds, Carls Junior, Starbucks, Jack
in the Box, and on and on; to the complete occlusion of anything else. I
didn't even see a Wimpys. It sure didn't look like London anymore.

Sunnyvale looks much better. Picadilly Circus makes Sunnyvale's Murphy
Street look like a unique local district with its own distinctive flavor
and with no franchise restaurants. Too bad about London!

Wayne

[Julian Macassey]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 02:32:07 +0000 (UTC), Wayne E. Amacher
<***@deletethis.green.rahul.net> wrote:
>
> The last time I had a stopover in London (November 2006) I took the
> underground from Heathrow to Picadilly Circus. All along the street were
> American Franchise Restaurants; McDonalds, Carls Junior, Starbucks, Jack
> in the Box, and on and on; to the complete occlusion of anything else. I
> didn't even see a Wimpys. It sure didn't look like London anymore.

Picadilly Circus is Tourist Cebtral, to keepn those
Merkin tourists from starving to death they have Merkin chain
restaurants. Those in the know, just walk into Soho from
Picadilly Circus and enjoy good, cheap food.

I can reccomend Jimmy's at 21 Frith Street.

My receptionist at work visited London with her parents,
they ONLY ate Merkin food there.

>
> Sunnyvale looks much better. Picadilly Circus makes Sunnyvale's Murphy
> Street look like a unique local district with its own distinctive flavor
> and with no franchise restaurants. Too bad about London!

Try walking around London, every cuisine is available,
even good Indian.


--
You can't trust people who have such terrible food. - Jaques
Chirac about the British.

[Peter Lawrence]

Julian Macassey wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 02:32:07 +0000 (UTC), Wayne E. Amacher
> <***@deletethis.green.rahul.net> wrote:
>>
>> The last time I had a stopover in London (November 2006) I took the
>> underground from Heathrow to Piccadilly Circus. All along the street were
>> American Franchise Restaurants; McDonalds, Carls Junior, Starbucks, Jack
>> in the Box, and on and on; to the complete occlusion of anything else. I
>> didn't even see a Wimpys. It sure didn't look like London anymore.
>
> Piccadilly Circus is Tourist Central, to keepn those
> Merkin tourists from starving to death they have Merkin chain
> restaurants. Those in the know, just walk into Soho from
> Piccadilly Circus and enjoy good, cheap food.
>
> I can recommend Jimmy's at 21 Frith Street.
>
> My receptionist at work visited London with her parents,
> they ONLY ate Merkin food there.
>
>> Sunnyvale looks much better. Piccadilly Circus makes Sunnyvale's Murphy
>> Street look like a unique local district with its own distinctive flavor
>> and with no franchise restaurants. Too bad about London!
>
> Try walking around London, every cuisine is available,
> even good Indian.

Going to London to eat Indian food is just as dumb as going there and
eating American fast-food.

In your opinion, which London restaurant serves the best _English_ cuisine?

- Peter

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <0iEHj.26287$***@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>Going to London to eat Indian food is just as dumb as going there
>and eating American fast-food.

Er, I think you might be wrong about that.

>In your opinion, which London restaurant serves the best _English_
>cuisine?

You need to check out Julian's sig for that, perhaps. I thought it
was hilariously unfortunate for his post.

[Peter Lawrence]

Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> In article <0iEHj.26287$***@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> Going to London to eat Indian food is just as dumb as going there
>> and eating American fast-food.
>
> Er, I think you might be wrong about that.

How so? I already know that London has some world-class Indian
restaurants, but why would I travel across the Atlantic for Indian food
when I can get excellent Indian food here in the United States?

When I travel to another country, I like to try out their national and
regional cuisines. Maybe that doesn't make me a typical American
tourist though.

>> In your opinion, which London restaurant serves the best _English_
>> cuisine?
>
> You need to check out Julian's sig for that, perhaps. I thought it
> was hilariously unfortunate for his post.

Well, that's the stereotype of English cuisine. Still, I think London
should have some fine examples of English cuisine that actually tastes
great.

- Peter

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <HxEHj.167$***@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>How so? I already know that London has some world-class Indian
>restaurants, but why would I travel across the Atlantic for Indian
>food when I can get excellent Indian food here in the United States?

Well, I can't personally swear to this, but reliable word is that
London has the world's best Indian restaurants -- if you like that
kind of thing.

>When I travel to another country, I like to try out their national
>and regional cuisines.

I'm with you there, but in the case of London, that's Indian food.

>Well, that's the stereotype of English cuisine.

I'll leave that to others. I do hear it's improving.

[Peter Lawrence]

Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> In article <HxEHj.167$***@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> How so? I already know that London has some world-class Indian
>> restaurants, but why would I travel across the Atlantic for Indian
>> food when I can get excellent Indian food here in the United States?
>
> Well, I can't personally swear to this, but reliable word is that
> London has the world's best Indian restaurants -- if you like that
> kind of thing.

I would have thought that the very best Indian restaurants would be
found in India, silly me. Maybe in New Delhi, Mumbai, or Chennai (Madras).

- Peter

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <0YEHj.26290$***@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>I would have thought that the very best Indian restaurants would
>be found in India, silly me.

The Indian restaurant was really invented in London (this isn't so
crazy if you stop to think about it). Last I heard, restaurants
in India were not real good. Perhaps they're improving. Indian
restaurants in the Bay Area have certainly improved quite a bit,
as a group, in the past several years.

[Tim May]

In article <0YEHj.26290$***@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>, Peter
Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:

> Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> > In article <HxEHj.167$***@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
> > Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> How so? I already know that London has some world-class Indian
> >> restaurants, but why would I travel across the Atlantic for Indian
> >> food when I can get excellent Indian food here in the United States?
> >
> > Well, I can't personally swear to this, but reliable word is that
> > London has the world's best Indian restaurants -- if you like that
> > kind of thing.
>
> I would have thought that the very best Indian restaurants would be
> found in India, silly me. Maybe in New Delhi, Mumbai, or Chennai (Madras).

This marks you as a nonthinker.

Think more carefully. Who has almost no money, no sanitation, corrupt
government? Check.

Who has a lot of money, a lot of Indians willing to be cooks. A desire
to depart from boring British food? Check.

Now think again, oh retarded one, about why India would have better
Indian restaurants than London would have.

Some of you people just need to be taken out and shot.



--Tim May

[Peter Lawrence]

Tim May wrote:
> In article <0YEHj.26290$***@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>, Peter
> Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>> Todd Michel McComb wrote:
>>> In article <HxEHj.167$***@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>,
>>> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How so? I already know that London has some world-class Indian
>>>> restaurants, but why would I travel across the Atlantic for Indian
>>>> food when I can get excellent Indian food here in the United States?
>>>
>>> Well, I can't personally swear to this, but reliable word is that
>>> London has the world's best Indian restaurants -- if you like that
>>> kind of thing.
>>
>> I would have thought that the very best Indian restaurants would be
>> found in India, silly me. Maybe in New Delhi, Mumbai, or Chennai (Madras).
>
> Think more carefully. Who has almost no money, no sanitation, corrupt
> government? Check.
>
> Who has a lot of money, a lot of Indians willing to be cooks. A desire
> to depart from boring British food? Check.

While there are vast amounts of dirt poor people living in India, there
are also a significant amount of extremely wealthy people who also live
in India who could easily afford the very best cuisine India has to
offer. There ought to be fine high-end Indian restaurants in the most
cosmopolitan cities of India that caters to them.

I'm not arguing that London doesn't have world-class Indian restaurants.
By all accounts, they do. Still, I would expect the very best Indian
restaurants, nevertheless, to be located in India.

But honestly, I don't really care either way. I just find it ironic
that the best Indian cuisine could be found outside of India.

- Peter

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <zsFHj.5651$***@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>While there are vast amounts of dirt poor people living in India, there
>are also a significant amount of extremely wealthy people who also live
>in India who could easily afford the very best cuisine India has to
>offer. ....
>Still, I would expect the very best Indian restaurants, nevertheless,
>to be located in India.

You still think that after being told otherwise?

Anyway, one fascinating TV program I just randomly saw at one point
had to do with the lunch distribution system in Mumbai. Basically,
they have all these professionals, and they want/need their lunch
from home, and it's not ready when they leave. So all this food
gets picked up at people's homes, tagged in various ways, and routed
to their workplace for lunch. It was quite an engaging thing to
watch, quite a "human networking" system.

Wealthy people in India expect to eat home-cooked food. If you
visit India, you want to be a guest of someone and eat in their
home. Changes to that basic dynamic have been very recent.

I will just drop it. The people from India who post here can tell
you, if you don't believe me.

[Tim May]

In article <fsn93q$2qja$***@agricola.medieval.org>, Todd Michel McComb
<***@medieval.org> wrote:

> In article <zsFHj.5651$***@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
> >While there are vast amounts of dirt poor people living in India, there
> >are also a significant amount of extremely wealthy people who also live
> >in India who could easily afford the very best cuisine India has to
> >offer. ....
> >Still, I would expect the very best Indian restaurants, nevertheless,
> >to be located in India.
>
> You still think that after being told otherwise?

He's a fucking retard, filled with "I would think...." sophistries.

Friends of mine who have travelled in India have told me about so-so
food, about obviously spoiled meat, about dishes and silverware being
washed in mud puddles behind the restaurant (that they witnessed, upon
leaving the restaurant).

Fact is, for utterly obvious reasons, the best restaurant of _any_
cuisine tend to be in regions where people pay the best, where the
hygiene is better, and where marketing makes a difference.

Not suprising at all that Vietnamese restauraunts in Silicon Valley are
higher-rated than places in General Thuan Kai Sak City in Vietnam where
meals are cooked over water buffalo dung and where the water supply is
downstream of a million honey buckets. And where every dish is covered
with flies.

Besides the filth in GKTS City, the chefs make a lot more money in
Silicon Valley.

Granted, the 12-year-old whores in GKTS City are better than the
crack-addicted negro whores imported from East Palo Alto.

--Tim May

[Julian Macassey]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:30:32 -0700, Tim May <***@removethis.got.net> wrote:
>
> Friends of mine who have travelled in India have told me about so-so
> food, about obviously spoiled meat, about dishes and silverware being
> washed in mud puddles behind the restaurant (that they witnessed, upon
> leaving the restaurant).
>
> Fact is, for utterly obvious reasons, the best restaurant of _any_
> cuisine tend to be in regions where people pay the best, where the
> hygiene is better, and where marketing makes a difference.

This is true of the San Gabriel Valley. They have a an
enormous Oriental population, Vietnamese, Chinese, Malayan,
Burmese, you name it.

They also have LA County food inspection, access to fresh
vegetables from the surrounding areas, good refridgeration and a
wealthy clientele.

The result is some of the best Oriental food anywhere.


--
You can't trust people who have such terrible food. - Jaques
Chirac about the British.

[Tim May]

In article <fsn93q$2qja$***@agricola.medieval.org>, Todd Michel McComb
<***@medieval.org> wrote:

> In article <zsFHj.5651$***@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
> >While there are vast amounts of dirt poor people living in India, there
> >are also a significant amount of extremely wealthy people who also live
> >in India who could easily afford the very best cuisine India has to
> >offer. ....
> >Still, I would expect the very best Indian restaurants, nevertheless,
> >to be located in India.
>
> You still think that after being told otherwise?
>
> Anyway, one fascinating TV program I just randomly saw at one point
> had to do with the lunch distribution system in Mumbai. Basically,
> they have all these professionals, and they want/need their lunch
> from home, and it's not ready when they leave. So all this food
> gets picked up at people's homes, tagged in various ways, and routed
> to their workplace for lunch. It was quite an engaging thing to
> watch, quite a "human networking" system.

Yes, though I've never been to India (thank Moloch!), I've seen
numerous reports on this over the years. Friends of mine who have lived
in India have filled in the details.

A cumbersome, from many standpoints, system. But workable if one has a
large population of poeple who make what we in the West would call
substandard wages.

If we had a few hundred thousand niggers in California who could pick
up our lunches, made by a few hundred thousand hausfraus content to
prepare lunches, and not requiring expensive upkeep, we, too, could
have our lunches delivered to us.

Unfortunately, our niggers got uppity and are now on welfare.

And our hausfraus demanded a "meaningful" life and are either running a
flower boutique in Los Altos or are screwing their yoga instructors.

Which is why we don't have Indian niggers delivering lunches to us.

Political correctness aside, this is the truth. The Indian system is
vastly inefficient and depends on vast amounts of niggerization, of
both males and females.

I doubt most liberals would support the degree of niggerization this
system requires.

--Tim May

[Peter Lawrence]

Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> In article <zsFHj.5651$***@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> While there are vast amounts of dirt poor people living in India, there
>> are also a significant amount of extremely wealthy people who also live
>> in India who could easily afford the very best cuisine India has to
>> offer.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Still, I would expect the very best Indian restaurants, nevertheless,
>> to be located in India.
>
> You still think that after being told otherwise?

I still think it could be a *possibility*. Not that it's a certainty by
any means. You and Tim make it sound that it's an outlandish thought to
even *think* that it might be possible that the best Indian restaurants
in the world just might happen to be located within India.

I'm just saying it's a possibility *and* something that should be a
normal expectation.

I'm not saying that it's actually the case. I have no idea if it is or
is not. Someone who knows first-hand about the quality of fine Indian
restaurants in both India and London could provide the authoritative
answer to us.

Again, I'm not saying the best Indian restaurants are in India, I'm just
saying that one might expect that (even though that expectation could be
proven wrong).

> Anyway, one fascinating TV program I just randomly saw at one point
> had to do with the lunch distribution system in Mumbai. Basically,
> they have all these professionals, and they want/need their lunch
> from home, and it's not ready when they leave. So all this food
> gets picked up at people's homes, tagged in various ways, and routed
> to their workplace for lunch. It was quite an engaging thing to
> watch, quite a "human networking" system.
>
> Wealthy people in India expect to eat home-cooked food. If you
> visit India, you want to be a guest of someone and eat in their
> home. Changes to that basic dynamic have been very recent.

I can believe that.

> I will just drop it. The people from India who post here can tell
> you, if you don't believe me.

It's not that I don't believe you, it is just I thought it could be a
possibility.

It would interesting to read what people who have first-hand knowledge
about the Indian restaurants in London and India have to say.

- Peter

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <G6HHj.5652$***@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>,
Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
>It's not that I don't believe you, it is just I thought it could
>be a possibility.

Sure, yours isn't an outrageous guess. It just doesn't happen to be
true.

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 29, 9:19 pm, Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:
> Todd Michel McComb wrote:
> > In article <0iEHj.26287$***@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>,
> > Peter Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:

> When I travel to another country, I like to try out their national and
> regional cuisines. Maybe that doesn't make me a typical American
> tourist though.
>
> >> In your opinion, which London restaurant serves the best _English_
> >> cuisine?
>
> > You need to check out Julian's sig for that, perhaps. I thought it
> > was hilariously unfortunate for his post.
>
> Well, that's the stereotype of English cuisine. Still, I think London
> should have some fine examples of English cuisine that actually tastes
> great.

What is English cuisine any more, or American cuisine for that matter?
Try this guy's reviews:
<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/
eating_out/winners_dinners/article3645142.ece

[Tim May]

In article <0iEHj.26287$***@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net>, Peter
Lawrence <***@aol.com> wrote:

> Julian Macassey wrote:

> > Try walking around London, every cuisine is available,
> > even good Indian.
>
> Going to London to eat Indian food is just as dumb as going there and
> eating American fast-food.
>
> In your opinion, which London restaurant serves the best _English_ cuisine?
>

Though it seems like only a short time ago to me, it was more than a
lifetime ago for some posters here: I was in London in 1983 and found
that the only decent places to eat were what we in Politically Correct
America call "ethnic places" but what the Brits (according to BBC
America, Food Network, etc.) call "curry shops."

I tried a few fish and chips places and was grossed-out (Ob1970sTerm)
by the dripping grease causing the newsprint under my fish and chips to
flow into the meal. Absolutely horrible. At two different places, I ate
a few bites, dumped the meal, and went looking for a McDonald's, or,
failing that, a Wimpy's.

Sure, there are reportedly now a bunch of high-end "English cuisine"
places. And no doubt, back in '83, they were available for the hoity
toity crowd.

But my experience then was that the worse meal I ever had at Sizzler
was better than the best meal I ever had a non-ethnic (non-Indian,
non-Paki) restaurant in London.

The joke I learned a few years later is that England has a great
cuisiine: Indian.

Like I said, I hear from t.v. sources that things have gotten better.


--Tim May

[Geoff Miller]

Ciccio <***@comcast.net> protests:

> Oh please, there has been similar gang activity in SJ.

So the obvious question is, "*How much* gang activity, relative
to San Jose?"


> But OK, Fresno is the same soulless wasteland as SJ, but with
> a few areas with higher crime rates.

But do we know that it's just "a few areas?" Honest question; I'm
not very familiar with Fresno, aside from having read in the papers
that it's a relative hotbed of gang activity.



Geoff

--
"I know! How about combining a compressed-air catapult
with the trap? To unload the trap, you would fire the
coon into the air like a skeet." -- Alan Gore

[Ciccio]

On Mar 28, 9:45 pm, ***@lava.net (Geoff Miller) wrote:

> But do we know that it's just "a few areas?" Honest question; I'm
> not very familiar with Fresno, aside from having read in the papers
> that it's a relative hotbed of gang activity.

It seems the bad areas are really bad, but the rest of the city is OK,
with some very nice areas. Indeed, areas that rival the upscale areas
of the BA. That's based on my observations, not any scholarly Wiki
research. I used the hear the same gang stuff about Oakland. Yet, in
the many years I lived there, I never even came close to being a crime
victim. That said, except for Fresno's bad areas being worse than
SJ's bad areas, it's not much different than SJ.

FWIW, at a get together a few months ago, I had occasion to chat with
a Lt or Capt with Fresno PD and he was touting that they were having
the lowest crime rate in like 40 years, with even a decrease in the
actual number of crimes. If that's true, that's impressive, given the
increase in population. Though, I'm sure they have a long way to go in
the crime-ridden areas. It does, however, comport with the above
article, which sounds like Fresno cops are kicking ass and taking
names on gang bangers.

OBBa.Food: Fresno even has some DiCicco's just like the So Bay.

Ciccio

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 29, 1:17 am, Ciccio <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> OBBa.Food: Fresno even has some DiCicco's just like the So Bay.

Now I feel sorrier for Fresno than I did before. After eating at the
one on El Camino, I can't understand how they still survive, twenty
years later. At that time, their food was solidly on a par with that
of Two Guys from Italy (TM) R.I.P.

[Ciccio]

On Mar 29, 8:46 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 29, 1:17 am, Ciccio <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > OBBa.Food: Fresno even has some DiCicco's just like the So Bay.
>
> Now I feel sorrier for Fresno than I did before. After eating at the
> one on El Camino, I can't understand how they still survive, twenty
> years later.

Heh. We are talking the So. Bay and Fresno. The same type of tastes
that have allowed Chef Boy-ar-dee to be around about four times longer
than DiCiccos.

Ciccio

[Al Eisner]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008, Ciccio wrote:

> On Mar 29, 8:46 am, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Mar 29, 1:17 am, Ciccio <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> OBBa.Food: Fresno even has some DiCicco's just like the So Bay.
>>
>> Now I feel sorrier for Fresno than I did before. After eating at the
>> one on El Camino, I can't understand how they still survive, twenty
>> years later.
>
> Heh. We are talking the So. Bay and Fresno. The same type of tastes
> that have allowed Chef Boy-ar-dee to be around about four times longer
> than DiCiccos.

You Berkeley types (or Berkeley-wannabees) are soooo condescending....
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <***@flora01.slac.stanford.edu>,
Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>You Berkeley types (or Berkeley-wannabees) are soooo condescending....

I'm not sure what's with this recent spate of East Bay pride-related
posts, but speaking personally, I'm not even from California. I
don't identify with here. So knock yourselves out... it just makes
me think the recommendations are more about "East Bay is great!"
than about food.

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 29, 4:54 pm, ***@medieval.org (Todd Michel McComb) wrote:
> In article <***@flora01.slac.stanford.edu>,
> Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> >You Berkeley types (or Berkeley-wannabees) are soooo condescending....
>
> I'm not sure what's with this recent spate of East Bay pride-related
> posts, but speaking personally, I'm not even from California. I
> don't identify with here. So knock yourselves out... it just makes
> me think the recommendations are more about "East Bay is great!"
> than about food.

If the shoe doesn't fit, you don't have to wear it.

[Ciccio]

On Mar 29, 4:50 pm, Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008, Ciccio wrote:

> You Berkeley types (or Berkeley-wannabees) are soooo condescending....

Yep, THEY sure are.

Ciccio

[Mark Lipton]

Serene Sprat wrote:

> She was talking about the "you can't go home again" aspect of "going
> back there"; she had returned to Oakland on a tour and went to look for
> her old house, and it was gone.

Aha. So, an earlier version of Chrissie Hynde's stirring anthem "Ohio,"
minus the vituperation.

Thanks,
Mark Lipton

[Serene Sprat]

Mark Lipton wrote:
> Serene Sprat wrote:
>
>> She was talking about the "you can't go home again" aspect of "going
>> back there"; she had returned to Oakland on a tour and went to look for
>> her old house, and it was gone.
>
> Aha. So, an earlier version of Chrissie Hynde's stirring anthem "Ohio,"
> minus the vituperation.

I don't recognize the reference, but I'll look it up.

Oh, yeah, looks like it:

"I went back to Ohio but my city was gone / there was no train
station there was no downtown..."

Serene

[Ian B MacLure]

Serene Sprat <***@serenepages.org> wrote in
news:***@mid.individual.net:

[snip]

> "I went back to Ohio but my city was gone / there was no train
> station there was no downtown..."

Thats the story of North America since the ealy sixties.
In the tiny town where my Mom grew up on the east coast I remember
train service, at least three general stores, a small department
store, bank, and a butcher. All gone now.

IBM

[Geoff Miller]

Ian B MacLure <***@svpal.org> writes:

>> "I went back to Ohio but my city was gone / there was no train
>> station there was no downtown..."

> Thats the story of North America since the ealy sixties. In the
> tiny town where my Mom grew up on the east coast I remember train
> service, at least three general stores, a small department store,
> bank, and a butcher. All gone now.


One of my earliest memories is of train service to *Los Gatos.*
Across the street from where the train station was, there sat the
Lyndon Hotel -- where that shopping center with the yuppie pizza
place is now. That's why the square in front of the post office
is called Lyndon park.

Perhaps even harder for people to wrap their brains around is that
I remember when downtown Los Gatos had utilitarian businesses that
were meant for the use of locals, as opposed to being a yuppie theme
park. There even used to be a grocery store on Santa Cruz Avenue,
more or less across the street from where Mountain Charlie's is now.



Geoff

--
"I know! How about combining a compressed-air catapult
with the trap? To unload the trap, you would fire the
coon into the air like a skeet." -- Alan Gore

[Steve Fenwick]

In article <***@corp.supernews.com>,
***@lava.net (Geoff Miller) wrote:

> Ian B MacLure <***@svpal.org> writes:
>
> >> "I went back to Ohio but my city was gone / there was no train
> >> station there was no downtown..."
>
> > Thats the story of North America since the ealy sixties. In the
> > tiny town where my Mom grew up on the east coast I remember train
> > service, at least three general stores, a small department store,
> > bank, and a butcher. All gone now.
>
>
> One of my earliest memories is of train service to *Los Gatos.*
> Across the street from where the train station was, there sat the
> Lyndon Hotel -- where that shopping center with the yuppie pizza
> place is now. That's why the square in front of the post office
> is called Lyndon park.
>
> Perhaps even harder for people to wrap their brains around is that
> I remember when downtown Los Gatos had utilitarian businesses that
> were meant for the use of locals, as opposed to being a yuppie theme
> park. There even used to be a grocery store on Santa Cruz Avenue,
> more or less across the street from where Mountain Charlie's is now.

That's the free market in action.

Steve

--
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, chip shot in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Geoff Miller]

Tim May <***@removethis.got.net> writes:

> City managers condemned many blocks of Murphy Avenue, invited
> the bulldozers in, and built an immediately-unsuccessful
> "Sunnyvale Town Center."

As I recall it was quite sucessful for a number of years, insofar
as the crowds and traffic were anything to go by.

Sunnyvale Town Center, like Vallco, was a perfectly viable shopping
center at the time it was built and for years afterward. What
changed was the upgrading of Valley Fair from its original, open
1950s style to a mega-mall. The other two shopping centers were
immediately outclassed.


> Frankly, were I you, an outsider, I would not even bother trying
> to learn to navigate through the failed city development projects
> to get to the remaining free enterprise core. Locals know it, but
> outsiders have to fight through through the "Official Town Center"
> (often spelled "Centre," to aid in marketing) bullshit glitz.

Oh, come on. Proceed along Mathilda from the direction of either
El Camino or Hwy. 101 as appropriate, then turn east on Washington.
Pass between Macy's and Town & Country Village; the restaurant
district will be on your left, between Washington and Evelyn.
There's plenty of parking next to Macy's, and in a parking plaza
just east of Murphy. Piece of cake.



Geoff

--
Fuck the environment.
There. I said it.

[Karen]

On Mar 28, 8:22 am, ***@lava.net (Geoff Miller) wrote:
> Sunnyvale Town Center, like Vallco, was a perfectly viable shopping
> center at the time it was built and for years afterward.  What
> changed was the upgrading of Valley Fair from its original, open
> 1950s style to a mega-mall.  The other two shopping centers were
> immediately outclassed.  

In it's heyday, Sunnyvale Town Center had everything and it was
convenient. Plus, the parking lot upstairs was a perfect place to
watch the Blue Angels at the moffett air show.

This thread is like walking down memory lane!

Karen

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 28, 9:08 am, Karen <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 8:22 am, ***@lava.net (Geoff Miller) wrote:
>
> > Sunnyvale Town Center, like Vallco, was a perfectly viable shopping
> > center at the time it was built and for years afterward. What
> > changed was the upgrading of Valley Fair from its original, open
> > 1950s style to a mega-mall. The other two shopping centers were
> > immediately outclassed.
>
> In it's heyday, Sunnyvale Town Center had everything and it was
> convenient. Plus, the parking lot upstairs was a perfect place to
> watch the Blue Angels at the moffett air show.

I think STC's heyday was over long before Valley Fair made it possible
to walk from Macy's to the Emporium under shelter. I went there a
couple times in the mid-80s without seeing anything notable besides a
"B. Waldenbooks" (in Geoff's felicitous phrase) and a Chick-Fil-A. To
me the problem was it seemed oddly invisible from Mathilda, the most
major street that it abutted, that only massive feng shui
reengineering could save.

[SMS]

***@gmail.com wrote:

> I think STC's heyday was over long before Valley Fair made it possible
> to walk from Macy's to the Emporium under shelter. I went there a
> couple times in the mid-80s without seeing anything notable besides a
> "B. Waldenbooks" (in Geoff's felicitous phrase) and a Chick-Fil-A. To
> me the problem was it seemed oddly invisible from Mathilda, the most
> major street that it abutted, that only massive feng shui
> reengineering could save.

Vallco and STC suffered from "too many malls," the rise of more upscale
big box stores like Price Club (which arrived in the Bay Area around
1983) and Target, and the shifting demographics.

Vallco was still viable for many years after Valley Fair was enclosed,
and benefited from the closing of the Sears on West San Carlos, and the
closing of the JC Penney stores at San Antonio Shopping Center,
Westgate, and later STC.

Both the ownership and management of Vallco have been hopelessly bad for
many years. It was just sold again, this time to Evershine out of
Taiwan. The previous owners, that built the movie theater, were close to
bankruptcy and hadn't paid the construction company. The owners had been
counting on selling part of the land to a developer that would build
condos in a parking lot next to 280, but a ballot referendum prevented
the rezoning of the property, and nixed the land sale.

Vallco may yet succeed. Between the department stores they are trying to
reinvent themselves as more of a restaurant and entertainment venue.
Supposedly a 400 seat beer hall is coming. They seem to have wisely
given up on trying to lease space to more retail stores. Macy's doesn't
really want to be there, but they own the building, and there's some
sort of deed restriction that prohibits them from just leaving the store
empty. When Federated bought Emporium, they tried putting a clearance
center in Vallco for a while, but that violated some restriction on the
use of the building, and they had to open a real store or sell the store
(and Macy's is desperately trying to keep Dillard's out of the area).

One plan for Vallco had been to convert the lower level to an Asian
marketplace, but the city of Cupertino didn't want that, even though the
lower level was almost completely empty.

[Al Eisner]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> I think STC's heyday was over long before Valley Fair made it possible
> to walk from Macy's to the Emporium under shelter.

But now the long walk at Valley Fair just gets you from Macy's to Macy's.
Depressing!
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[Karen]

On Mar 28, 2:11 am, Tim May <***@removethis.got.net> wrote:
> First, understand that "Murphy Avenue," as discussed here, has been
> squeezed down to about half a normal city block. It once ran all all
> the way from the train tracks to El Camino Real, a couple of miles,
> when I moved to Sunnyvale in 1975. City managers condemned many blocks
> of Murphy Avenue, invited the bulldozers in, and built an
> immediately-unsuccessful "Sunnyvale Town Center." For most of 1976-78
> the bulldozers tore down the existing restaurants, fish shops, hardware
> stores, and whatnot. In their place, the concrete pile that was empty
> most of every day, home to Spencer's Gifts, Waldenbooks, and Montgomery
> Ward's. Oh, and some small stores selling carved trinkets, school
> pennants, and candy.
>
> Second, understand that "Murphy Avenue," the actual street-level
> restaurant street we are talking about here, is squeezed-in between a
> couple of Developer-Sponsored City Shopping Districts. To wit:
>
> -- the Town and Country Village, a clone of the version that was torn
> down to make room for Santana Oyo Como Va Village across from Westfield
> Village Shoppingtown Valley Fair Mall in Santa Clara and the (as yet)
> not torn down Town and Country Termite-Ridden Shoppingtown Mall across
> from Stanford
>
> and
>
> The Sunnyvale Town Center, a depressing collection of knick-knack
> shops, plus Montgomery Ward's, first opened when I lived four blocks
> away, around 1978. It has since been gutted a couple of times. The
> first gutting involved building a two-level parking structure in front.
> The current gutting involves demolishing much of the STC and the
> parking structure and (I understand) creating an "Authentic Extension
> of Historic Murphy Avenue." Perhaps Disney Animatronic figures of
> Gordon Moore and Charlie Sporck will grace this recreation.
>
> Frankly, were I you, an outsider, I would not even bother trying to
> learn to navigate through the failed city development projects to get
> to the remaining free enterprise core. Locals know it, but outsiders
> have to fight through through the "Official Town Center" (often spelled
> "Centre," to aid in marketing) bullshit glitz.
>
> Meanwhile, a few miles north, Castro Street in Mountain View never
> suffered city-managed "redevelopment" (translation: bribes) on the same
> scale. So the Street was not bookended by "Town and Country Center"  or
> "Mountain View Town Center." The bullshit-developed "town center" was
> an enclosed mall built near Central Expressway, near San Antonio, not
> far from the Milk Pail, complete with a bubbling brook inside. And it
> had the same bullshit stores Sunnyvale Town Center had. It failed, was
> torn down in the late 80s, and is now high-density housing.

You forgot to mention The Old Mill mall/shopping plaza. As doomsday
approached for the Old Mill, the theaters had dollar movies and we had
a lot of fun seeing movies there.

Karen

[Geoff Miller]

Karen <***@yahoo.com> writes:

[to Timmay]

> You forgot to mention The Old Mill mall/shopping plaza. As
> doomsday approached for the Old Mill, the theaters had dollar
> movies and we had a lot of fun seeing movies there.


The Old Mill was what he was referring to when he wrote:

>> The bullshit-developed "town center" was an enclosed mall built
>> near Central Expressway, near San Antonio, not far from the Milk
>> Pail, complete with a bubbling brook inside. And it had the same
>> bullshit stores Sunnyvale Town Center had. It failed, was torn
>> down in the late 80s, and is now high-density housing.

My friends and I enjoyed the dollar movies, also. There was a decent
Mexican restaurant in there called La Posada; it had a nice little bar.

And I seem to recall a bookstore _cum_ coffee shop, in the style that
was briefly popular during the '80s before being swept away by the
advent of mega-bookstores like Borders & Noble. It might've been a
branch of Upstart Crow & Co., like the one at the Pruneyard.

(The Capitola Mall has a former B. Waldenbooks that's now a Borders
Express. Other than the name, nothing has changed; it's just like
the small bookstores that used to be in seemingly every mall in
America during the '70s and '80s. Going in there is like entering
a time warp.)

Strangely, despite living in Mountain View since long before the
Old Mill was built, I can't remember what preceded it in that spot.
I draw a complete blank. It was probably nothing but undeveloped
land.



Geoff

--
"Darkies? Water cannon? Get back in your hole?
Why be PC when you can be right? Geoff, you're
wrong. You are completely wrong. You are as
wrong as you can be." -- ***@informix.com

[Jeff Lanam]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:37:06 -0000, ***@lava.net (Geoff Miller)
wrote:

>
>And I seem to recall a bookstore _cum_ coffee shop, in the style that
>was briefly popular during the '80s before being swept away by the
>advent of mega-bookstores like Borders & Noble. It might've been a
>branch of Upstart Crow & Co., like the one at the Pruneyard.

I think that was a branch of A Clean-Well Lighted Place for Books. Are
any of those still around? I remember one in the Oaks in Cupertino,
across from DeAnza College.

[Geoff Miller]

Jeff Lanam <jeff-dot-***@hp-dot-com-not.net> writes:

> I think that was a branch of A Clean-Well Lighted Place for Books.
> Are any of those still around? I remember one in the Oaks in
> Cupertino, across from DeAnza College.


I thought that was the only one. I miss that place; where else
could one buy a Rudyard Kipling T-shirt?



Geoff

--
"I know! How about combining a compressed-air catapult
with the trap? To unload the trap, you would fire the
coon into the air like a skeet." -- Alan Gore

[Rajappa Iyer]

Jeff Lanam <jeff-dot-***@hp-dot-com-not.net> writes:

> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:37:06 -0000, ***@lava.net (Geoff Miller)
> wrote:
>
>>
>>And I seem to recall a bookstore _cum_ coffee shop, in the style that
>>was briefly popular during the '80s before being swept away by the
>>advent of mega-bookstores like Borders & Noble. It might've been a
>>branch of Upstart Crow & Co., like the one at the Pruneyard.
>
> I think that was a branch of A Clean-Well Lighted Place for Books. Are
> any of those still around?

There's one in San Francisco on Van Ness and Turk. It has "merged" with
Peets next door.

rsi

[Al Eisner]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008, Rajappa Iyer wrote:

> Jeff Lanam <jeff-dot-***@hp-dot-com-not.net> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:37:06 -0000, ***@lava.net (Geoff Miller)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And I seem to recall a bookstore _cum_ coffee shop, in the style that
>>> was briefly popular during the '80s before being swept away by the
>>> advent of mega-bookstores like Borders & Noble. It might've been a
>>> branch of Upstart Crow & Co., like the one at the Pruneyard.
>>
>> I think that was a branch of A Clean-Well Lighted Place for Books. Are
>> any of those still around?
>
> There's one in San Francisco on Van Ness and Turk. It has "merged" with
> Peets next door.

That one has become a Books, Inc.
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[Pete Fraser]

"Geoff Miller" <***@lava.net> wrote in message
news:***@corp.supernews.com...

> There was a decent
> Mexican restaurant in there called La Posada; it had a nice little bar.

Brings back memories. La Posada was my first Mexican reastaurant.

Me (to waiter bringing chips and salsa:
But we didn't order these.

Waiter:
You always get these - they're free.

Me (to self):
I think I'm going to like America.

[Karen]

On Mar 28, 12:27 pm, "Pete Fraser" <***@covad.net> wrote:

> Brings back memories. La Posada was my first Mexican reastaurant.
>
> Me (to waiter bringing chips and salsa:
> But we didn't order these.
>
> Waiter:
> You always get these - they're free.
>
> Me (to self):
> I think I'm going to like America.

Where are you from?

It really irks me when restaurants charge for chips, like Chili's
does.

Karen

[Geoff Miller]

Karen <***@yahoo.com> writes:

> It really irks me when restaurants charge for chips,
> like Chili's does.


All the more so considering that only a subset of customers
at Chili's even order them, while Mexican restaurants give
them out to everybody for free. It's reasonable to suspect
that Chili's could easily absorb the cost of making them a
freebie. They could probably offset at least part of the
expense with the increased drink sales that free chips would
generate.



Geoff

--
"I know! How about combining a compressed-air catapult
with the trap? To unload the trap, you would fire the
coon into the air like a skeet." -- Alan Gore

[Ciccio]

On Mar 28, 1:19 pm, ***@lava.net (Geoff Miller) wrote:

> All the more so considering that only a subset of customers
> at Chili's even order them, while Mexican restaurants give
> them out to everybody for free. It's reasonable to suspect
> that Chili's could easily absorb the cost of making them a
> freebie.

An old marketing ploy, which, as evidenced by your comments, still
works quite well...Very little, if anything, in commercial
transactions is *free* including chips at Mexican restaurants. They're
part of the the price of the meal. Whereas Chili's doesn't include
them in the price of the meal. Either way, make no mistake about it,
they're not *free*.

Ciccio

[Karen]

On Mar 28, 4:08 pm, Ciccio <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> An old marketing ploy, which,  as evidenced by your comments, still
> works quite well...Very little, if anything,  in commercial
> transactions is *free* including chips at Mexican restaurants. They're
> part of the the price of the meal. Whereas Chili's doesn't include
> them in the price of the meal. Either way, make no mistake about it,
> they're not *free*.

Nothing's free if you look at it that way. Perhaps, "complimentary"
would be a better term to use?

Karen

[Ciccio]

On Mar 28, 5:09 pm, Karen <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 4:08 pm, Ciccio <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> Nothing's free if you look at it that way. Perhaps, "complimentary"
> would be a better term to use?

Perhaps, "included in the price of the meal," is better yet. Don't
get me wrong, I agree with the technique. Throw the word FREE into a
service or product, and people will often bite at it. Don't, however,
confuse that with a "loss leader," where, at times "FREE" is used and
which, often times, can be a freebie if one exercises self-control.

Ciccio

[Geoff Miller]

Karen <***@yahoo.com> writes:

[to Ciccio]

> Nothing's free if you look at it that way. Perhaps, "complimentary"
> would be a better term to use?


Sure. Any restaurant is going to adjust its prices to cover its
overhead. There's no need for cynicism when that principle extends
to tortilla chips.



Geoff

--
"I know! How about combining a compressed-air catapult
with the trap? To unload the trap, you would fire the
coon into the air like a skeet." -- Alan Gore

[Julian Macassey]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0000, Geoff Miller <***@lava.net> wrote:
>
>
> Karen <***@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> [to Ciccio]
>
>> Nothing's free if you look at it that way. Perhaps, "complimentary"
>> would be a better term to use?
>
>
> Sure. Any restaurant is going to adjust its prices to cover its
> overhead. There's no need for cynicism when that principle extends
> to tortilla chips.
>

Or bread and butter, which many restaurants offer.


--
An emboldened al Qaeda with access to Iraq's oil resources could pursue
its ambitions to acquire weapons of mass destruction to attack America
and other free nations. - G. W. Bush 19 March 2008

[Ciccio]

On Mar 29, 4:21 am, Julian Macassey <***@tele.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0000, Geoff Miller <***@lava.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Karen <***@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > [to Ciccio]
>
> >> Nothing's free if you look at it that way. Perhaps, "complimentary"
> >> would be a better term to use?
>
> > Sure. Any restaurant is going to adjust its prices to cover its
> > overhead. There's no need for cynicism when that principle extends
> > to tortilla chips.
>
> Or bread and butter, which many restaurants offer.

Or water, albeit more commonly being served only upon request.

Ciccio

[SMS]

Geoff Miller wrote:

> Sure. Any restaurant is going to adjust its prices to cover its
> overhead.

Actually they're not, because they usually can't. They're going to
adjust their prices to be competitive with other restaurants. They can't
keep raising prices just because their overhead goes up, unless the
competing restaurants are doing the same thing because there overhead
also goes up.

Pricing isn't based on adding up the costs of ingredients, labor, and
overhead, and trying to distribute the cost across all the menu items,
if this were the case than most places would increase the cost of the
food and drastically lower the beverage prices.

[Geoff Miller]

SMS <***@geemail.com> writes:

: Any restaurant is going to adjust its prices to cover its overhead.

> Actually they're not, because they usually can't. They're going to
> adjust their prices to be competitive with other restaurants. They
> can't keep raising prices just because their overhead goes up,
> unless the competing restaurants are doing the same thing because
> there overhead also goes up.

(Why do I have a sense of foreboding, the feeling that what should
be a simple topic is on the verge of mutating into an interminable
exercise in hair-splitting like that thread awhile back about banks
charging ATM fees to non-customers, and what does and does not
constitute a "customer?")

You're introducing a new variable into the discussion that wasn't
there before: competition with other restaurants. Initially,
prices and overhead were being considered in isolation, relative
only to each other. But hey, I'll play.

Obviously, there comes a point where a restaurant either *has*
to raise its prices to cover overhead or go out of business,
competition be damned.

Restaurants don't work like gas stations used to, keeping their
prices within pennies of the gas station across the intersection
because they both sell essentially the same thing.

Unlike what gas stations sell, what restaurants offer isn't a
commodity; people go to a certain restaurant because they like
its food and because it's in a convenient location, not because
it offers a given dish for a dollar (or whatever) less than an
identically prepared dish at another restaurant a short distance
away.

For example, I'd sooner go to a T.G.I. Friday's than a Chili's
(to name two reasonably comparable chains) because I simply like
the food and ambience at the former better than at the latter.
Price doesn't enter into it. So I wouldn't care if the T.G.I.
Friday's at, say, Vallco raised its prices moderately to cover
a rent hike or something, while the Chili's on Stevens Creek
near De Anza didn't. The price increase would be lost in the
noise.



Geoff

--
"When I hear them praying extra loud, I always go out
and check the lock on the smokehouse." -- Harry Truman

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <***@corp.supernews.com>,
Geoff Miller <***@lava.net> wrote:
>Unlike what gas stations sell, what restaurants offer isn't a
>commodity; ....

Personally, I agree with you, but in places with a lot of nearby
restaurants, it does seem like lunches end up being priced like
commodities. There seems to be a lot of willingness for lunch
customers to head next door based on price, within tiers.

[Peter Lawrence]

Geoff Miller wrote:
> SMS <***@geemail.com> writes:
>
> : Any restaurant is going to adjust its prices to cover its overhead.
>
>> Actually they're not, because they usually can't. They're going to
>> adjust their prices to be competitive with other restaurants. They
>> can't keep raising prices just because their overhead goes up,
>> unless the competing restaurants are doing the same thing because
>> there overhead also goes up.
>
> (Why do I have a sense of foreboding, the feeling that what should
> be a simple topic is on the verge of mutating into an interminable
> exercise in hair-splitting like that thread awhile back about banks
> charging ATM fees to non-customers, and what does and does not
> constitute a "customer?")
>
> You're introducing a new variable into the discussion that wasn't
> there before: competition with other restaurants. Initially,
> prices and overhead were being considered in isolation, relative
> only to each other. But hey, I'll play.
>
> Obviously, there comes a point where a restaurant either *has*
> to raise its prices to cover overhead or go out of business,
> competition be damned.
>
> Restaurants don't work like gas stations used to, keeping their
> prices within pennies of the gas station across the intersection
> because they both sell essentially the same thing.
>
> Unlike what gas stations sell, what restaurants offer isn't a
> commodity; people go to a certain restaurant because they like
> its food and because it's in a convenient location, not because
> it offers a given dish for a dollar (or whatever) less than an
> identically prepared dish at another restaurant a short distance
> away.
>
> For example, I'd sooner go to a T.G.I. Friday's than a Chili's
> (to name two reasonably comparable chains) because I simply like
> the food and ambiance at the former better than at the latter.
> Price doesn't enter into it. So I wouldn't care if the T.G.I.
> Friday's at, say, Vallco raised its prices moderately to cover
> a rent hike or something, while the Chili's on Stevens Creek
> near De Anza didn't. The price increase would be lost in the
> noise.

But that's just you.

Even though restaurant food isn't a generic commodity like gasoline,
most restaurants except possibly the highest tier ones like the French
Laundry are indeed price-sensitive because most most diners take the
price of the meal in consideration when evaluating a restaurant.

Is it the *only* consideration? Of course not, but it's one that most
diners think about to some decree when selecting which restaurant to go
to for a meal.

Using your example, I'm pretty confident that if the Cupertino T.G.I.
Friday's charged significantly more money for their burgers, steaks, and
ribs than the Cupertino Chili's did, then their business would suffer
overall. Of course some people, like you, would still prefer T.G.I.
Friday's over Chili's but I'm confident a significant number of other
people would start going to Chili's more often then T.G.I. Fridays
because of the price difference.

- Peter

[SMS]

Geoff Miller wrote:

> Unlike what gas stations sell, what restaurants offer isn't a
> commodity; people go to a certain restaurant because they like
> its food and because it's in a convenient location, not because
> it offers a given dish for a dollar (or whatever) less than an
> identically prepared dish at another restaurant a short distance
> away.

In many cases it's close to a commodity, i.e. TGIF versus Ruby Tuesday
versus Chili's, or Chipotle versus Unamas versus Baja Fresh. The hole in
the wall Chinese places, and the Pho places certainly are price
sensitive with their lunch prices.

In any case, it's jut that a place like Chipotle won't charge more or
less for their burritos based on whether some chips are included or are
extra, just like a Chinese lunch special isn't affected by the inclusion
of a fortune cookie.

[SMS]

Karen wrote:
> On Mar 28, 12:27 pm, "Pete Fraser" <***@covad.net> wrote:
>
>> Brings back memories. La Posada was my first Mexican reastaurant.
>>
>> Me (to waiter bringing chips and salsa:
>> But we didn't order these.
>>
>> Waiter:
>> You always get these - they're free.
>>
>> Me (to self):
>> I think I'm going to like America.
>
> Where are you from?
>
> It really irks me when restaurants charge for chips, like Chili's
> does.

Chipotle charges for them. They're terrible, so no one buys them anyway.

[Pete Fraser]

"Karen" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1aca5fb7-14cf-414d-9511-***@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

> Where are you from?

UK

[Ian B MacLure]

"Pete Fraser" <***@covad.net> wrote in news:13urb7c2u5oa459
@news.supernews.com:

> "Karen" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1aca5fb7-14cf-414d-9511-***@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Where are you from?
>
> UK

So how are things in Kiev?

IBM

[Geoff Miller]

Ian B MacLure <***@svpal.org> writes:

[to Pete Fraser]

>>> Where are you from?

>> UK

> So how are things in Kiev?


Heh...reminds me of a joke I read years ago, either in Playboy
or in "Coffee, Tea Or Me?" A drunk was hitting on a stewardess
(ObJulian: air hostess), who tried to dissuade him by saying
that she was a lesbian. Without missing a beat, the drunk
replied, "So how are things in Beirut?"



Geoff

--
"I know! How about combining a compressed-air catapult
with the trap? To unload the trap, you would fire the
coon into the air like a skeet." -- Alan Gore

[Steve Pope]

Karen <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

>It really irks me when restaurants charge for chips, like Chili's
>does.

Whereas I was pleased when chip restaurants in the UK started
charging separately for chips than for fish, chicken, etc.
Previously you would pay for, and probably not eat, some huge mountain
of chips.

Speaking of which, I recall there was some whining here when
people noticed that Sea Salt charges $18 for fish and chips.
In the UK, at this point, a downscale pub charges $18 (i.e. L9),
whereas an upscale pub charges L12 ($24). In the latter
case you're probably getting as good a fish and chips as Sea Salt
prepares, but it's still a pub not a restaurant. So I say
Sea Salt is a deal.

Steve

[s***@gmail.com]

On Mar 29, 3:31 pm, ***@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
> Karen <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >It really irks me when restaurants charge for chips, like Chili's
> >does.
>
> Whereas I was pleased when chip restaurants in the UK started
> charging separately for chips than for fish, chicken, etc.
> Previously you would pay for, and probably not eat, some huge mountain
> of chips.
>
> Speaking of which, I recall there was some whining here when
> people noticed that Sea Salt charges $18 for fish and chips.
> In the UK, at this point, a downscale pub charges $18 (i.e. L9),
> whereas an upscale pub charges L12 ($24). In the latter
> case you're probably getting as good a fish and chips as Sea Salt
> prepares, but it's still a pub not a restaurant. So I say
> Sea Salt is a deal.

The day W. took office, 9 GBP were worth $13.14; 12 GBP was worth
$17.52 Only the freefall of the dollar on W.'s watch could make $18
for fish and chips look reasonable compared to UK prices.

[Ciccio]

On Mar 29, 5:00 pm, ***@gmail.com wrote:

> The day W. took office, 9 GBP were worth $13.14; 12 GBP was worth
> $17.52 Only the freefall of the dollar on W.'s watch could make $18
> for fish and chips look reasonable compared to UK prices.

Man, it sure is a good thing the Democratically controlled Congress
was on "watch" to keep that in check, just like Iraq...

Ciccio

[Peter Lawrence]

Al Eisner wrote:
>
> I tried once to go to Dish Dash, but (in a previously-described fiasco)
> failed to find any restaurants on any of the portions of Murphy Street
> I managed to notice on my map.

You didn't get to the right block of Murphy Street.

The 100 block of *South* Murphy Street is where all the restaurants are
located. The 100 block is located between West Evelyn and West
Washington Avenues near the Sunnyvale Caltrain station.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=100+South+Murphy+Street,+Sunnyvale,+CA&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.885545,65.214844&ie=UTF8&ll=37.376995,-122.031112&spn=0.005908,0.007961&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.377635,-122.029836

- Peter

[Steve Pope]

Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

>On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, ***@gmail.com wrote:

>> Dish Dash is the only place I'd ever go back to.

>How does it compare with places in Palo Alto or Mt. View which serve
>eastern-Mediterranean food?

I don't know how it compares to these places, but it is not
particularly good. It is however one of the better bets
on that block of Murphy.

>I tried once to go to Dish Dash, but (in a previously-described fiasco)
>failed to find any restaurants on any of the portions of Murphy Street
>I managed to notice on my map.

People often get confused between addresses on North Murphy and
South Murphy.

Steve

[Al Eisner]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008, Steve Pope wrote:

> Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> I tried once to go to Dish Dash, but (in a previously-described fiasco)
>> failed to find any restaurants on any of the portions of Murphy Street
>> I managed to notice on my map.
>
> People often get confused between addresses on North Murphy and
> South Murphy.

That wasn't my problem. Rather, I hadn't caught on that there are three
or more disjoint pieces of Murphy, and the relevant piece is quite short.
This was afterwards explained to me on ba.food.

As to Dish Dash, some here seem to like it. It's the sort of place I
would try if I happen to be in the area -- the menu looks interesting.
--

Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

[Steve Fenwick]

In article
<***@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>,
Al Eisner <***@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

> As to Dish Dash, some here seem to like it. It's the sort of place I
> would try if I happen to be in the area -- the menu looks interesting.

The appetizers are better than the entrees--make a meal of mezze, and
you'll be set.

Steve

--
steve <at> w0x0f <dot> com
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, chip shot in the other, body thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <nospam-***@free.teranews.com>,
Steve Fenwick <***@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>The appetizers are better than the entrees--make a meal of mezze,
>and you'll be set.

This is true of many restaurants, in my experience.

Anyway, at Dishdash, I'm pretty fond of the mansef (discussed here
before, although it's been a while), but it's an acquired taste, I
believe. There are also some tasty salmon entrees for those who
like that sort of thing.