Whole wheat pizza plus. . . ?

[Enzo Lombard-Quintero]

A month-long guest is on the South Beach Diet (sort of like Atkins I think)
and wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and asian and
ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have white rice or white
flour.

As much as I know about restaurants, I only know a few Indian places that do
brown rice, nowhere that serves whole wheat pasta or pizza, and can't think
of any asian places that do other than white rice. Even places I can buy
whole wheat pizza dough, I'm going to try Trader Joe's first, who do carry
whole wheat pasta.

Any suggestions, otherwise I'm up for a hellish amounts of cooking.

thanks
enzosf

[PeterL]

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
A month-long guest is on the South Beach Diet (sort of like Atkins I think)
and wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and asian and
ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have white rice or white
flour.

pf changs' serve brown rice.

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
As much as I know about restaurants, I only know a few Indian places that do
brown rice, nowhere that serves whole wheat pasta or pizza, and can't think
of any asian places that do other than white rice. Even places I can buy
whole wheat pizza dough, I'm going to try Trader Joe's first, who do carry
whole wheat pasta.
Any suggestions, otherwise I'm up for a hellish amounts of cooking.
thanks
enzosf

[Steve Pope]

Post by PeterL

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and
asian and ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have
white rice or white flour.

pf changs' serve brown rice.

Lots of Chinese and some Thai restaurants serve brown rice.
Sometimes they do not state this on the menu. Ask, but
be careful because some clueless Chinese places interpret
"brown rice" to mean "fried rice".

Your Place, a Thai restaurant in Berkeley, has particularly
good brown rice.

Whole wheat pizza is harder to find. La Val's (several locations
in/near Berkeley) has had it at least in the past. I do
not know of any other pizza restaurants that do it. If you
want to try making a pizza-like thing at home, you can start
with an Alvarado Bakery whole-weat pizza bread (available
e.g. at Berkeley Natural Foods).

Steve

[Al Eisner]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by PeterL

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and
asian and ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have
white rice or white flour.

pf changs' serve brown rice.

Lots of Chinese and some Thai restaurants serve brown rice.
Sometimes they do not state this on the menu. Ask, but
be careful because some clueless Chinese places interpret
"brown rice" to mean "fried rice".
Your Place, a Thai restaurant in Berkeley, has particularly
good brown rice.
Whole wheat pizza is harder to find. La Val's (several locations
in/near Berkeley) has had it at least in the past. I do
not know of any other pizza restaurants that do it. If you
want to try making a pizza-like thing at home, you can start
with an Alvarado Bakery whole-weat pizza bread (available
e.g. at Berkeley Natural Foods).

A crude web search turned up some hits -- for example, a place in Los
Gatos which offers an optional whole wheat crust; and even the well-known
Zachary's in Oakland has at least one whole wheat pizza on the menu.
The O.P. didn't specify locality, and he can surely do a better search
himself. (Google!)

Not the same thing, but one pizza place I'm very fond of is Vicolo in
SF, which uses a cornmeal crust.

[Enzo Lombard-Quintero]

Mozarella di Bufalo and Extreme Pizza both "used to" offer that, but don't
anymore.

Vicolo's a good idea, but I'm pretty sure cornmeal is out, as much as I love
it.

thanks
enzosf

Post by Al Eisner

Post by Steve Pope

Post by PeterL

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and
asian and ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have
white rice or white flour.

pf changs' serve brown rice.

Lots of Chinese and some Thai restaurants serve brown rice.
Sometimes they do not state this on the menu. Ask, but
be careful because some clueless Chinese places interpret
"brown rice" to mean "fried rice".
Your Place, a Thai restaurant in Berkeley, has particularly
good brown rice.
Whole wheat pizza is harder to find. La Val's (several locations
in/near Berkeley) has had it at least in the past. I do
not know of any other pizza restaurants that do it. If you
want to try making a pizza-like thing at home, you can start
with an Alvarado Bakery whole-weat pizza bread (available
e.g. at Berkeley Natural Foods).

A crude web search turned up some hits -- for example, a place in Los
Gatos which offers an optional whole wheat crust; and even the well-known
Zachary's in Oakland has at least one whole wheat pizza on the menu.
The O.P. didn't specify locality, and he can surely do a better search
himself. (Google!)
Not the same thing, but one pizza place I'm very fond of is Vicolo in
SF, which uses a cornmeal crust.

[Kent H.]

Your Place is our favorite east bay thai restaurant.

Post by Steve Pope

Post by PeterL

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and
asian and ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have
white rice or white flour.

pf changs' serve brown rice.

Lots of Chinese and some Thai restaurants serve brown rice.
Sometimes they do not state this on the menu. Ask, but
be careful because some clueless Chinese places interpret
"brown rice" to mean "fried rice".
Your Place, a Thai restaurant in Berkeley, has particularly
good brown rice.
Whole wheat pizza is harder to find. La Val's (several locations
in/near Berkeley) has had it at least in the past. I do
not know of any other pizza restaurants that do it. If you
want to try making a pizza-like thing at home, you can start
with an Alvarado Bakery whole-weat pizza bread (available
e.g. at Berkeley Natural Foods).
Steve

[Mark Mellin]

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
A month-long guest is on the South Beach Diet (sort of like Atkins I think)
and wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and asian and
ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have white rice or white
flour.
As much as I know about restaurants, I only know a few Indian places that do
brown rice, nowhere that serves whole wheat pasta or pizza, and can't think
of any asian places that do other than white rice.

Here are two that come to mind:

Homma's Brown Rice Sushi
[phone]
2363 Birch St
Palo Alto, CA 94306

Jasmine Tea House
[phone]
3253 Mission St
San Francisco, CA 94110

- Mark

[Marcella Tracy Peek]

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
A month-long guest is on the South Beach Diet (sort of like Atkins I think)
and wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and asian and
ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have white rice or white
flour.
As much as I know about restaurants, I only know a few Indian places that do
brown rice, nowhere that serves whole wheat pasta or pizza, and can't think
of any asian places that do other than white rice. Even places I can buy
whole wheat pizza dough, I'm going to try Trader Joe's first, who do carry
whole wheat pasta.

I have seen whole wheat pizza dough at TJ's in the refrigerator case.

marcella

[Enzo Lombard-Quintero]

Thanks, Marcella, I was thrilled to find it there today. At only 99 cents,
I can't ruin anything that serious.

thanks
enzo

Post by Marcella Tracy Peek

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
A month-long guest is on the South Beach Diet (sort of like Atkins I think)
and wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust and asian and
ethnic restaurants that serve brown rice? Can't have white rice or white
flour.
As much as I know about restaurants, I only know a few Indian places that do
brown rice, nowhere that serves whole wheat pasta or pizza, and can't think
of any asian places that do other than white rice. Even places I can buy
whole wheat pizza dough, I'm going to try Trader Joe's first, who do carry
whole wheat pasta.

I have seen whole wheat pizza dough at TJ's in the refrigerator case.
marcella

[Karen O'Mara]

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
Thanks, Marcella, I was thrilled to find it there today. At only 99 cents,
I can't ruin anything that serious.

How did you enjoy the product? It's one of our TJ favorites.

Karen

[bizbee]

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
otherwise I'm up for a hellish amounts of cooking.

some "guest." I'd suggest that <they> are up for a hellish amount of
cooking.

[Martin Frankel]

California Pizza Kitchen has an optional honey wheat crust for all their
pizzas. It's tasty.

Martin

[Martin Frankel]

California Pizza Kitchen has an optional honey wheat crust for all their
pizzas. It's tasty.

Martin

[Steve Pope]

Post by Martin Frankel
California Pizza Kitchen has an optional honey wheat crust
for all their pizzas. It's tasty.

Yes, but it's difficult to determine whether this is a whole
wheat crust, or contains mostly white flour.

S.

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by Martin Frankel
California Pizza Kitchen has an optional honey wheat crust
for all their pizzas. It's tasty.

Yes, but it's difficult to determine whether this is a whole
wheat crust, or contains mostly white flour.

Every "whole wheat" crust is likely to contain mostly white flour. A
quick google for whole wheat pizza crust recipes finds the following
"whole wheat" recipes:


1 pk Dry yeast
1 c Warm water
-(105 to 115 F)
2 1/2 c All-purpose flour
3/4 c Whole wheat flour
2 ts Salt
4 ts Cornmeal (optional)


1 T yeast
1 t Sugar
1/4 c Cornmeal
3 T Whole wheat flour
3 c White bread flour
1 1/4 c Warm water
2 T Applesauce


1 Tbls. granulated sugar OR honey
1 1/4 cups 110 degree water
.25 oz. pkt. active dry yeast
1 1/4 cups all-purpose flour
2 cups whole wheat flour
1 tsp. salt
2 Tbls. olive oil


1 envelope active dry yeast
1 cup very warm water
1 1/2 cups whole wheat flour
2 teaspoons granulated sugar
1/2 teaspoon salt
2 tablespoons olive oil
1 1/2 cups unbleached white flour


jc

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope

Post by Martin Frankel
California Pizza Kitchen has an optional honey wheat crust
for all their pizzas. It's tasty.

Yes, but it's difficult to determine whether this is a whole
wheat crust, or contains mostly white flour.

Every "whole wheat" crust is likely to contain mostly white flour.

I disagree; if it's "whole wheat" then it's whole wheat, or else it
(by "it" I mean pizza crust, bread, etc.) is mislabled. If it's
"wheat" then that is usually an allusion to a whole-wheatish quality,
with as you state some likely proportion of white flour.

Post by JC Dill
quick google for whole wheat pizza crust recipes finds the following

Then these recipes are mis-named.

Steve

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope
Then these recipes are mis-named.

I've been baking bread for over 30 years, and every single "whole
wheat" bread recipe I've ever used has had regular flour in addition
to whole wheat flour. Also "rye bread" recipies only contain small
amounts of rye flour mixed with wheat flour.

Any bread product made with 100% whole wheat flour will be very dense
and chewy, not at all like what people EXPECT when they purchase or
order what is COMMONLY called "whole wheat" bread etc.

jc

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
Then these recipes are mis-named.

I've been baking bread for over 30 years, and every single "whole
wheat" bread recipe I've ever used has had regular flour in addition
to whole wheat flour.

I still say they're misnamed, and such a product should be
called something other than "whole" wheat. Otherwise, the
consumer has no way of avoiding refined white flour.

Steve

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
Then these recipes are mis-named.

I've been baking bread for over 30 years, and every single "whole
wheat" bread recipe I've ever used has had regular flour in addition
to whole wheat flour.

I still say they're misnamed, and such a product should be
called something other than "whole" wheat. Otherwise, the
consumer has no way of avoiding refined white flour.

The traditional product has a mix of whole wheat and non-whole wheat
flours and the name of "whole wheat". The consumer needs to look at
the label to see what the exact ingredients are. That's just the way
it is.

jc

[Karen O'Mara]

Post by JC Dill
The traditional product has a mix of whole wheat and non-whole wheat
flours and the name of "whole wheat". The consumer needs to look at
the label to see what the exact ingredients are. That's just the way
it is.

Whole-wheat pizza crust should really be name 'whole-wheat style' or some sort.

Karen

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
Then these recipes are mis-named.

I've been baking bread for over 30 years, and every single "whole
wheat" bread recipe I've ever used has had regular flour in addition
to whole wheat flour.

I still say they're misnamed, and such a product should be
called something other than "whole" wheat. Otherwise, the
consumer has no way of avoiding refined white flour.

I suppose you complain that head cheese is misnamed because it has
meet in it and no cheese.

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
I still say they're misnamed, and such a product should be
called something other than "whole" wheat. Otherwise, the
consumer has no way of avoiding refined white flour.

I suppose you complain that head cheese is misnamed because it has
meet in it and no cheese.

No, but I'm sticking with the definition of "whole wheat"
as meaning that germ and bran occur in the same proportions
as is found in the grain itself, as opposed to lesser proportions.
Otherwise, it isn't "whole".

This shouldn't be too complicated a concept.

Steve

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Steve Pope
This shouldn't be too complicated a concept.

It's fine to say that in a vacuum, but after people have been
routinely using a different concept for decades, that ship has
already sailed. I suppose that 100% whole wheat breads would need
to emphasize "100% whole wheat" or the like now, to get their point
across.

[Steve Pope]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Steve Pope
This shouldn't be too complicated a concept.

It's fine to say that in a vacuum, but after people have been
routinely using a different concept for decades, that ship has
already sailed. I suppose that 100% whole wheat breads would need
to emphasize "100% whole wheat" or the like now, to get their point
across.

It's not as bad as you guys think; I just went to Andronico's
and looked at the ingredients in all bread products which
are called something that includes "whole wheat". There
were nine such whole wheat breads on the shelf; only one (Beckmann's
Whole Wheat Sourdough) had any white flour in it. The rest
all have only whole wheat flour.

So while not an assurance, it seems typically a bread sold
as "whole wheat" is in fact whole wheat.

The products that were all whole wheat are:

Campbell Bakery Whole Wheat
Black Muslim Whole Wheat
Orowheat 100% Whole Wheat
Orowheat Honey Whole Wheat
Baker's Inn Honey Whole Wheat
Alvarado 100% Whole Wheat
Alvarado 100% Whole Wheat Oatmeal
Country Hearth 100% Whole Wheat

Steve

[Paul Russell]

Post by Steve Pope
It's not as bad as you guys think; I just went to Andronico's
and looked at the ingredients in all bread products which
are called something that includes "whole wheat". There
were nine such whole wheat breads on the shelf; only one (Beckmann's
Whole Wheat Sourdough) had any white flour in it. The rest
all have only whole wheat flour.
So while not an assurance, it seems typically a bread sold
as "whole wheat" is in fact whole wheat.

But how do you know that the "whole wheat flour" doesn't actually
contain a percentage of white flour ?

Paul

[Steve Pope]

Post by Paul Russell

Post by Steve Pope
So while not an assurance, it seems typically a bread sold
as "whole wheat" is in fact whole wheat.

But how do you know that the "whole wheat flour" doesn't actually
contain a percentage of white flour ?

I guess I don't. One would have to troll through food-labeling
laws to figure this out. However, one could get a general idea
by looking at the percentages of protein and fiber. Whole
wheat flour should be about 13% protein.

Steve

[ll]

I'm sticking with the definition of "whole wheat" as meaning
that germ and bran occur in the same proportions as is found
in the grain itself, as opposed to lesser proportions.

That's true only as it applies to the _flour_, not to bread
made from the flour.

Otherwise, it isn't "whole".

Your basic assumption is incorrect.
The term is: "whole wheat bread".
The word "whole" modifies "wheat".
It does _not_ modify "bread".

There is _some_ whole wheat flour in whole wheat _bread_.
The proportion varies by recipe. The majority (not all)
of recipes for whole wheat bread have around a 50-50 ratio.
A few are 100%. They are often of higher quality (and price).
For home bakers they take more time and effort. Worth it,
in my opinion, but I'm sure that there are millions who disagree.
Plus sometimes a different flavor or texture is desired for
a specific bread.


Ob.Bread.Books: The Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart.
It's award wining, and deservedly so. James Beard Foundation
Book Award winner. IACP cookbook award book of the year.
I highly recommend it.

[Steve Pope]

Post by ll

I'm sticking with the definition of "whole wheat" as meaning
that germ and bran occur in the same proportions as is found
in the grain itself, as opposed to lesser proportions.

That's true only as it applies to the _flour_, not to bread
made from the flour.

Otherwise, it isn't "whole".

Your basic assumption is incorrect.
The term is: "whole wheat bread".
The word "whole" modifies "wheat".
It does _not_ modify "bread".

In my view, yes it does.

The only reason many recipes include white flour in "whole wheat"
breads is that the target audience for those recipes is people
who mostly prefer white bread. I do not regard such recipes
as definitive. And it appears for commercial bread, such
non-whole-wheat breads are usually called something else
(e.g. "dark wheat", "sour whear", "winter wheat" etc.)

Steve

[Ed Swierk]

Post by Steve Pope
No, but I'm sticking with the definition of "whole wheat"
as meaning that germ and bran occur in the same proportions
as is found in the grain itself, as opposed to lesser proportions.
Otherwise, it isn't "whole".
This shouldn't be too complicated a concept.

Sounds simple to me, as long as we're talking about flour.

As for bread, I'll admit to experiencing mild shock the first time I found
out that whole wheat bread isn't necessarily made exclusively from whole
wheat flour.

I too was ready to take up the cause for whole-wheat purity, until someone
pointed out that most rye breads have some amount of plain-old wheat
flour, since a bread made from 100% rye flour would tend towards the dense
and chewy side.

The news that potato bread contains hardly any potato really rocked my
world. I'm steeling myself for the day someone claims that
cinnamon-raisin bread has ingredients other than cinnamon and raisins.

--Ed

[Steve Pope]

Post by Ed Swierk

Post by Steve Pope
No, but I'm sticking with the definition of "whole wheat"
as meaning that germ and bran occur in the same proportions
as is found in the grain itself, as opposed to lesser proportions.
Otherwise, it isn't "whole".

Sounds simple to me, as long as we're talking about flour.
As for bread, I'll admit to experiencing mild shock the first
time I found out that whole wheat bread isn't necessarily made
exclusively from whole wheat flour.
I too was ready to take up the cause for whole-wheat purity,
until someone pointed out that most rye breads have some
amount of plain-old wheat flour, since a bread made from 100%
rye flour would tend towards the dense and chewy side.
The news that potato bread contains hardly any potato really
rocked my world. I'm steeling myself for the day someone claims
that cinnamon-raisin bread has ingredients other than cinnamon
and raisins.

I think the distinction is in the word "whole". The phrase
"100% whole" as Todd suggested is clarifying, yet it should be
redundant. If flour (or bread) is not "100% whole", then
neither is it "whole".

One explanation for the confusion of calling non-whole-wheat
bread recipes "whole wheat" is provided by Laurel Robinson
in _Laurel's Kithen_ -- according to her, techniques for making
whole-wheat bread differ significantly from tehcniques for
making white bread. Many cookbooks figure they can get
away with applying the latter techniques, if they substitute
a percentage of white flour, to get a not-really whole wheat product.

Steve

[Al Eisner]

Post by Steve Pope
I think the distinction is in the word "whole". The phrase
"100% whole" as Todd suggested is clarifying, yet it should be
redundant. If flour (or bread) is not "100% whole", then
neither is it "whole".

That is just word-play. "Whole wheat" is an ingredient, just as "rye"
is an ingredient. If you try to separate out the word "whole" you don't
get anything meaningful. The name of a product (like "rye bread" or
"whole wheat bread" or "carrot salad" or ...) is not an ingredient list.
If you want an ingredient list, read the ingredient list. Of course
that leaves one with a problem in restaurants, but what else is new?
One has to ask and judge whether the response is based on actual knowledge.
All IMO, of course.

[Steve Pope]

Post by Al Eisner

Post by Steve Pope
I think the distinction is in the word "whole". The phrase
"100% whole" as Todd suggested is clarifying, yet it should be
redundant. If flour (or bread) is not "100% whole", then
neither is it "whole".

That is just word-play. "Whole wheat" is an ingredient, just as "rye"
is an ingredient. If you try to separate out the word "whole" you don't
get anything meaningful.

I disagree; "whole" implies the proportions of the components
of the original grain are kept intact.

If they said something like "bread with wheat germ and wheat bran"
then that would imply nothing about proportions. But "whole"
is, or should be, quantitative.

Steve

[RWW]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
I still say they're misnamed, and such a product should be
called something other than "whole" wheat. Otherwise, the
consumer has no way of avoiding refined white flour.

I suppose you complain that head cheese is misnamed because it has
meet in it and no cheese.

No, but I'm sticking with the definition of "whole wheat"
as meaning that germ and bran occur in the same proportions
as is found in the grain itself, as opposed to lesser proportions.
Otherwise, it isn't "whole".
This shouldn't be too complicated a concept.

So that's your definition of whole wheat bread.
What's your definition of cinnamon raisin bread?

[Steve Pope]

Post by RWW
So that's your definition of whole wheat bread.

Bread made wheat grain that is whole as opposed to wheat
grain that has had some parts of it removed.

Post by RWW
What's your definition of cinnamon raisin bread?

Bread with cinnamon and raisins in it.

Next question?

Steve

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by RWW
So that's your definition of whole wheat bread.

Bread made wheat grain that is whole as opposed to wheat
grain that has had some parts of it removed.

Whole wheat bread is bread with whole wheat flour in it.

Post by Steve Pope

Post by RWW
What's your definition of cinnamon raisin bread?

Bread with cinnamon and raisins in it.

Cinnamon raisin bread is bread with cinnamon and raisins in it.

Post by Steve Pope
Next question?

I fail to understand why the common naming convention is so confusing
to you.

jc

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope

Post by RWW
So that's your definition of whole wheat bread.

Bread made wheat grain that is whole as opposed to wheat
grain that has had some parts of it removed.

Whole wheat bread is bread with whole wheat flour in it.
I fail to understand why the common naming convention is so confusing
to you.

I don't accept that the "common naming convention" allows
non-whole-wheat breat to be called "whole wheat". This is
only common among a handful of non-authentic cookbooks and
recipes that have circulated among people not interested
in authenticity.

Get with the program.

Steve

[Eddie Grove]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope

Post by RWW
So that's your definition of whole wheat bread.

Bread made wheat grain that is whole as opposed to wheat
grain that has had some parts of it removed.

Whole wheat bread is bread with whole wheat flour in it.
I fail to understand why the common naming convention is so confusing
to you.

I don't accept that the "common naming convention" allows
non-whole-wheat breat to be called "whole wheat". This is
only common among a handful of non-authentic cookbooks and
recipes that have circulated among people not interested
in authenticity.
Get with the program.

Do you think rye bread should be made without wheat flour?
Good luck finding any.

If you find it acceptable that rye bread can be made with generic
wheat flour in addition to rye flour, then consistently you should
allow whole wheat bread to be made with generic wheat flour in
addition to whatever it is that you think whole-wheat-flour is.


Eddie

[Steve Pope]

Post by Eddie Grove
If you find it acceptable that rye bread can be made with generic
wheat flour in addition to rye flour, then consistently you should
allow whole wheat bread to be made with generic wheat flour in
addition to whatever it is that you think whole-wheat-flour is.

Nonsense. "Whole" means whole. The only possible meaning
of "whole wheat" is wheat made from the whole grain.

You are caught up in false thinking.

S.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Steve Pope
Nonsense. "Whole" means whole. The only possible meaning
of "whole wheat" is wheat made from the whole grain.

You know, if the names are about attracting/informing people who
want to *avoid* an ingredient, then that's how the producers should
name things. Akin to "non-fat jell-o!" and "unsweetened broccoli!"
could be "bleach-free bread!" They could even suggest you might
go blind if you buy that other stuff. Now that's marketing.

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope
Nonsense. "Whole" means whole. The only possible meaning
of "whole wheat" is wheat made from the whole grain.
You are caught up in false thinking.

You are caught up in your illogical thinking. Everyone else in this
thread understands that cinnamon raisin bread is regular bread with
cinnamon and raisins in it, and whole wheat bread is regular bread
with whole wheat in it. In both cases, it's still bread, meaning it's
made with regular bread ingredients like bread flour, yeast, water,
etc.

And it is *traditional* that whole wheat breads have a percentage
(typically about 50%) of the flour that is not whole wheat, just as
rye breads have a percentage of the flour that is not rye flour.

Suddenly we have a fad diet where eating bread that isn't 100% whole
wheat is forbidden and you want the rest of the world to change to
make it easier for you to determine which breads are OK on your diet.
Well, dream on. A) it ain't gonna happen and B) your whining that
it's "false thinking" just shows that you aren't THINKING at all. You
made up your mind, and all of these posts are going in one ear and out
the other without triggering the thought process in your head.

Well, I'm done with this thread, because it's preaching to the choir
WRT the rest of ba.food, and as useful as talking to a door WRT you.

jc

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
Nonsense. "Whole" means whole. The only possible meaning
of "whole wheat" is wheat made from the whole grain.
You are caught up in false thinking.

You are caught up in your illogical thinking. Everyone else in this
thread understands that cinnamon raisin bread is regular bread with
cinnamon and raisins in it, and whole wheat bread is regular bread
with whole wheat in it. In both cases, it's still bread, meaning it's
made with regular bread ingredients like bread flour, yeast, water,
etc.

"Everyone else in this thread" does not constitute any sort
of authority. It's just a bunch of people who have chosen
one side of an issue and have started bashing on something.

Post by JC Dill
And it is *traditional* that whole wheat breads have a percentage
(typically about 50%) of the flour that is not whole wheat,

That is not "tradition" except among some minor subset of people
who are not making actual whole-wheat bread, perhaps following
incorrect recipes they found somewhere.

Post by JC Dill
Suddenly we have a fad diet where eating bread that isn't 100% whole
wheat is forbidden and you want the rest of the world to change to
make it easier for you to determine which breads are OK on your diet.

What a lot of hooey. You're off in fantasy land again. I have
no difficulty knowing what breads are OK in my diet. I'm
only interested in correcting your mis-statements on the subject.

Steve

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
Nonsense. "Whole" means whole. The only possible meaning
of "whole wheat" is wheat made from the whole grain.
You are caught up in false thinking.

You are caught up in your illogical thinking. Everyone else in this
thread understands that cinnamon raisin bread is regular bread with
cinnamon and raisins in it, and whole wheat bread is regular bread
with whole wheat in it. In both cases, it's still bread, meaning it's
made with regular bread ingredients like bread flour, yeast, water,
etc.

"Everyone else in this thread" does not constitute any sort
of authority. It's just a bunch of people who have chosen
one side of an issue and have started bashing on something.

If there are those who agree with your views, where are their posts
saying so?

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill
And it is *traditional* that whole wheat breads have a percentage
(typically about 50%) of the flour that is not whole wheat,

That is not "tradition" except among some minor subset of people
who are not making actual whole-wheat bread, perhaps following
incorrect recipes they found somewhere.

I've been baking bread for over 30 years. How long have YOU been
looking at whole wheat bread recipes?

Where are your cites that these recipes are not normal traditional
recipes for whole wheat bread?

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill
Suddenly we have a fad diet where eating bread that isn't 100% whole
wheat is forbidden and you want the rest of the world to change to
make it easier for you to determine which breads are OK on your diet.

What a lot of hooey. You're off in fantasy land again. I have
no difficulty knowing what breads are OK in my diet. I'm
only interested in correcting your mis-statements on the subject.

The only mistatements in this thread have been yours. You are off in
loony land, unable to THINK and apply what you have LEARNED to come to
a intelligent conclusion. You stick to your ill-informed opinion that
the labeling is wrong in spite of subsequent overwhelming data showing
you that you are incorrect.

jc

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill
If there are those who agree with your views, where are their posts
saying so?

I guess I don't need validation from the newsgroup to continue
to believe that "whole wheat" means "whole wheat". The phrase
implies that none of the bran and germ have been removed
when processing the grain. Obviously if you include white flour
in your bread you are not meeting this definition.

Post by JC Dill
I've been baking bread for over 30 years. How long have YOU been
looking at whole wheat bread recipes?

So then let me ask you: if you bake a loaf of bread with 50%
white flour, and as you are serving it to a guest they ask
you, "is this whole wheat?", is your answer an unequivocal yes?

Post by JC Dill
Where are your cites that these recipes are not normal traditional
recipes for whole wheat bread?

Let's look at the first cookbook I happen to picked up,
Laurel's Kitchen, as she describes how to make whole wheat bread:

"Our method is a traditional one developed long before white
flour came along".

The subsequent recipe (tautologically it would seem) uses all whole
wheat flour.

But in a sense Laurel supports your point of view when she states:

"So far as we have been able to tell, written recipes for ...
whole wheat bread are based on the way white flour acts. But
using whole wheat in a white flour manner often doesn't work."

I'm not a baker, but I speculate that one way to compensate
for a flawed whole-wheat bread method is to substitute some
white flour. Maybe this has happened so much that it's become a
"tradition".

Post by JC Dill
You stick to your ill-informed opinion that the labeling is
wrong in spite of subsequent overwhelming data showing you that
you are incorrect.

What you consider "overwhelming data" to me just looks like
repeated assertion (including on the part of those cookbook authors
for whom whole wheat bread is not particularly their specialty).

Steve

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Steve Pope
I guess I don't need validation from the newsgroup to continue
to believe that "whole wheat" means "whole wheat".

Interesting (well, if I delude myself) point: The kids' Safeway
Shredded Wheat (the name) proclaims loudly on the front of the box
"rich in whole grain." The ingredients, in fine print: "100% whole
wheat." Kinda funny, don't you think?

Post by Steve Pope
"Our method is a traditional one developed long before white
flour came along".

I don't know if Laurel's recipe is actually traditional, but yes,
whole grain breads and porridges, often very crude, were traditional
European fare. White flour was considered a luxury for centuries.
I'm sure some medieval baker advertised "White flour bread" which
also (mostly) contained whole wheat.

[Max Hauser]

I'm surprised that this topic causes such argumentation, even on today's
ba.food.

Regardless of how any of us would like things to be, custom in the US for
many decades was to label wheat bread recipes as "whole wheat" (or "rye" or
"potato" or etc.) if they contained even a small amount of the distinct
ingredient. ("Whole of the wheat" flour it was sometimes called, in older
US cookbooks.) JC Dill [and others?] already pointed this out, it will be
second nature to most people who have worked from US bread recipes for a
long time. Mid-60s Fannie Farmer and JOC cookbooks (two US standards) both
show 50% WW-flour recipes, although both also mention use of 100% WW flour
(JOC gives a recipe, FF merely describes resulting bread as "heavy"). That
was the common usage, it's not a big deal.

On the other hand Steve's supermarket-shelf data points, which surprised me
in view of that word history, seem to say that a pendulum has been swinging
toward 100% whole-grain. 10 years ago I was working with a lot of
immigrants and visitors from the Netherlands and a common complaint was "you
don't have any bread in the US, you just have this light stuff." In NL and
Germany and elsewhere they have some traditions of very grainy full-grain
("Vollkorn" in Germany) breads of wheat and, especially, rye. Keeps 'em
regular.

I sometimes wish languages were more logical. People get thrown by jargon
like "semi-annually" which always has meant every six months, or
(semi-annual)ly, rather than what some people reasonably guess, which is
semi- (annually) in frequency. But these things are so.

-- Max

[ll]

Steve's supermarket-shelf data points, which surprised me in view of
that word history, seem to say that a pendulum has been swinging
toward 100% whole-grain.

He found them at Andronico's. When you can find Black Muslim Whole Wheat
at LuckSafe I'll start to believe it. Or (Ob.That.Other.Thread) in
Iowa.

10 years ago I was working with a lot of immigrants and visitors from
the Netherlands and a common complaint was "you don't have any bread
in the US, you just have this light stuff."

They say the same thing about the beer.
And they _were_ correct.
(Still are in Iowa :)
The BA has good beer, bread, and cheese.
_They_ have the good traffic.
OK, they have Maytag blue cheese and we have Bud, but look at
the _big picture_.

[Steve Pope]

Post by ll

Steve's supermarket-shelf data points, which surprised me in view of
that word history, seem to say that a pendulum has been swinging
toward 100% whole-grain.

He found them at Andronico's. When you can find Black
Muslim Whole Wheat at LuckSafe I'll start to believe it.
Or (Ob.That.Other.Thread) in Iowa.

If someone wants to do a similar survey at other grocery
stores, be my guest. I'd be curious as to the results.

Note that even at Andronico's, only nine of the several dozen
breads in the store were called "whole wheat".

Steve

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope
So then let me ask you: if you bake a loaf of bread with 50%
white flour, and as you are serving it to a guest they ask
you, "is this whole wheat?", is your answer an unequivocal yes?

If that's the question, that's the answer. If they ask if it's 100%
whole wheat bread, then the answer is no, my recipe uses both whole
wheat flour and regular flour, as do most traditional whole wheat
recipes.

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill
Where are your cites that these recipes are not normal traditional
recipes for whole wheat bread?

Let's look at the first cookbook I happen to picked up,

What's the copyright date?

Post by Steve Pope
"Our method is a traditional one developed long before white
flour came along".

Cookbook authors use a lot of unsupported flowery phrases in their
books. A single book's cite is not sufficient to know what
"traditionally" really means, just as your single opinion in this
thread is not sufficient to determine if your opinion is the majority
opinion.

Post by Steve Pope
"So far as we have been able to tell, written recipes for ...
whole wheat bread are based on the way white flour acts. But
using whole wheat in a white flour manner often doesn't work."

Surprise surprise...

Post by Steve Pope
I'm not a baker, but I speculate that one way to compensate
for a flawed whole-wheat bread method is to substitute some
white flour. Maybe this has happened so much that it's become a
"tradition".

For many years after the invention of refined flours, whole wheat
flour and whole wheat breads were not popular. When there was a
resurgence in interest in whole wheat flour products, those who wanted
to bake them used their existing recipes and adapted them to
accommodate the new products. There was no reason to call these
breads something other than "whole wheat bread", just as recipes with
refined wheat flour and rye flour produced breads called "rye bread",
and recipes with mashed potato added were called "potato bread", and
recipes with cinnamon and raisins added were called "cinnamon raisin
bread". These recipes and the bread names make total sense, when you
look at the history and the names of the other breads.

Post by Steve Pope

Post by JC Dill
You stick to your ill-informed opinion that the labeling is
wrong in spite of subsequent overwhelming data showing you that
you are incorrect.

What you consider "overwhelming data" to me just looks like
repeated assertion (including on the part of those cookbook authors
for whom whole wheat bread is not particularly their specialty).

<http://www.bakersfederation.org.uk/History_of_Bread.aspx>
<http://www.breadinfo.com/history.shtml>

Read and learn.

jc

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
Let's look at the first cookbook I happen to picked up,

What's the copyright date?

_The New Laurel's Kitchen_, 1986. First published in 1976.

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
"Our method is a traditional one developed long before white
flour came along".

Cookbook authors use a lot of unsupported flowery phrases in their
books.

Laurel Robertson is not prone to misstatement or exagerration.
I would like to learn more details as to her statement that her
baking method pre-dates white flour, but I have no reason to
doubt it.

Post by JC Dill
A single book's cite is not sufficient to know what
"traditionally" really means,

You asked me for a cite, then you say it isn't sufficient.
It seems like your mind is made up ahead of time.

Post by JC Dill
For many years after the invention of refined flours, whole wheat
flour and whole wheat breads were not popular. When there was a
resurgence in interest in whole wheat flour products, those who wanted
to bake them used their existing recipes and adapted them to
accommodate the new products. There was no reason to call these
breads something other than "whole wheat bread", just as recipes with
refined wheat flour and rye flour produced breads called "rye bread",
and recipes with mashed potato added were called "potato bread", and
recipes with cinnamon and raisins added were called "cinnamon raisin
bread". These recipes and the bread names make total sense, when you
look at the history and the names of the other breads.

But none of the other examples you use ("rye bread", "potato bread")
include a quantitative term such as "whole". So their usage is not
an exact analogy. And it appears to me from bread products on
the market, "whole wheat" usually (but not always) means 100%
whole wheat, and breads with only some whole wheat are usually
instead called something else (e.g. "wheat bread", etc.)

So what you are calling a naming tradition is a tradition among
some cookbooks and home bakers, but has not penetrated the bread
industry.

Steve

[JC Dill]

Post by Steve Pope
But none of the other examples you use ("rye bread", "potato bread")
include a quantitative term such as "whole".

Rye bread is bread made with regular flour and rye flour. Potato
bread is bread made with regular flour and potatoes. Cinnamon raisin
bread is bread made with regular flour and cinnamon and raisins.
Whole wheat bread is bread made with regular flour and whole wheat
flour. Thus the name of the bread comes from the new ingredient(s)
that are not part of a regular bread recipe. There is no convention
for the name to mean "this is the only flour ingredient in the bread".

Post by Steve Pope
So their usage is not
an exact analogy. And it appears to me from bread products on
the market, "whole wheat" usually (but not always) means 100%
whole wheat, and breads with only some whole wheat are usually
instead called something else (e.g. "wheat bread", etc.)

This is relatively *new* usage. Go look at product names from 30-50
years ago and you will not find many products on store shelves called
"wheat bread", or for that matter called "100% whole wheat" as the
100% product was not usually produced in packaged form, at that time
it was only being produced by natural food bakeries etc.

Post by Steve Pope
So what you are calling a naming tradition is a tradition among
some cookbooks and home bakers, but has not penetrated the bread
industry.

No, the bread industry is merely changing their product names over
time, as all packaged goods do. Since 100% whole wheat bread is
becoming more popular, some bread bakeries are starting to drop the
100% term and use the "whole wheat" term to refer to100% whole wheat
breads. But not all the time, there are still bakeries who are using
their older recipes and the older "traditional" terms.

jc

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill

Post by Steve Pope
But none of the other examples you use ("rye bread", "potato bread")
include a quantitative term such as "whole".

Rye bread is bread made with regular flour and rye flour. Potato
bread is bread made with regular flour and potatoes. Cinnamon raisin
bread is bread made with regular flour and cinnamon and raisins.
Whole wheat bread is bread made with regular flour and whole wheat
flour. Thus the name of the bread comes from the new ingredient(s)
that are not part of a regular bread recipe. There is no convention
for the name to mean "this is the only flour ingredient in the bread".

According to this link:

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/2_8VARTY.PDF

Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (U.S.), Chapter 1,
Part 136, Subpart B - "Requirements for Specific Standardized
Bakery Products" provides that "Whole Wheat Bread must contain only
whole wheat flour as the flour ingredient".

Steve

[Paul Russell]

Post by Steve Pope
http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/2_8VARTY.PDF
Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (U.S.), Chapter 1,
Part 136, Subpart B - "Requirements for Specific Standardized
Bakery Products" provides that "Whole Wheat Bread must contain only
whole wheat flour as the flour ingredient".
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 21, Volume 2]
[Revised as of April 1, 2003]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 21CFR136.180]
[Page 371]
TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS
CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN
SERVICES (CONTINUED)
PART 136--BAKERY PRODUCTS--Table of Contents
Subpart B--Requirements for Specific Standardized Bakery Products
Sec. 136.180 Whole wheat bread, rolls, and buns.
(a) Each of the foods whole wheat bread, graham bread, entire wheat
bread, whole wheat rolls, graham rolls, entire wheat rolls, whole wheat
buns, graham buns, and entire wheat buns conforms to the definition and
standard of identity and is subject to the label statement of
ingredients prescribed for bread, rolls and buns by Sec. 136.110, except
(1) The dough is made from the optional ingredient whole wheat
flour, bromated whole wheat flour, or a combination of these. No flour,
bromated flour, or phosphated flour is used. The potassium bromate in
any bromated whole wheat flour used is deemed to be an additional
optional ingredient in the whole wheat bread, whole wheat rolls, or
whole wheat buns.
(2) The limitation prescribed by Sec. 136.110(c)(6) on the quantity
and composition of milk and/or other dairy products does not apply.
(b) The name of the food is "whole wheat bread", "graham bread",
"entire wheat bread", "whole wheat rolls", "graham rolls",
"entire wheat rolls", "whole wheat buns", "graham buns", "entire
wheat buns", as applicable.

Note that it says that: "The dough is made from the _optional_
ingredient whole wheat flour" which is pretty mystifying. It then goes
on to say "No flour, bromated flour, or phosphated flour is used." If
the whole wheat flour is optional and you can't use (white) flour then I
wonder what else you might use ?

Paul

[Steve Pope]

Post by Paul Russell

Post by Steve Pope
(1) The dough is made from the optional ingredient whole wheat
flour, bromated whole wheat flour, or a combination of these. No flour,
bromated flour, or phosphated flour is used. The potassium bromate in
any bromated whole wheat flour used is deemed to be an additional
optional ingredient in the whole wheat bread, whole wheat rolls, or
whole wheat buns.

Note that it says that: "The dough is made from the _optional_
ingredient whole wheat flour" which is pretty mystifying. It then goes
on to say "No flour, bromated flour, or phosphated flour is used." If
the whole wheat flour is optional and you can't use (white) flour then I
wonder what else you might use ?

It would take a fair amount of study to figure out what they are saying
here, but my impression is that "flour" is defined to be white flour,
and "whole wheat flour" is considered an optional ingredient in bread
in general. The phrase "optional ingredient whole wheat flour"
probably is intended to reference some other section where optional
ingredients are defined.

In any case, the interpretation offered by the website I cited is
that you can't include white flour amd call it "whole wheat bread".
This would explain what I found when I looked at ingredients lists.

Steve

[Paul Russell]

Post by Steve Pope
In any case, the interpretation offered by the website I cited is
that you can't include white flour amd call it "whole wheat bread".
This would explain what I found when I looked at ingredients lists.

I think you're probably right. I did also look up the definiton of whole
wheat flour at the same site and it's even more confusing - the
defintion seems to rest more on the size of the sieve holes through
which the flour will pass than whether it is actually "whole wheat" in
any commonly accepted sense.

Paul

[Steve Pope]

Post by JC Dill
The only mistatements in this thread have been yours. You are off in
loony land, unable to THINK and apply what you have LEARNED to come to
a intelligent conclusion. You stick to your ill-informed opinion that
the labeling is wrong in spite of subsequent overwhelming data showing
you that you are incorrect.

Okay... I'm curious.

Do you have any response to the information that in the U.S.
only whole wheat flour can be used in whole wheat bread,
or are you continuing to maintain your position in the
face of this, or what exactly are you trying to comminucate?

I mean, you chose to make such a big deal over over what
was a fairly minor point. Do you believe you have have
successfuly argued your position? (Honsest question,
from where I sit you haven't but maybe I am missing something.)

Steve

[Martin Frankel]

Post by Steve Pope
I don't accept that the "common naming convention" allows
non-whole-wheat breat to be called "whole wheat". This is
only common among a handful of non-authentic cookbooks and
recipes that have circulated among people not interested
in authenticity.

Steve,

For all this talk of authenticity, do you actually bake bread?

Martin

[Steve Pope]

Post by Martin Frankel
For all this talk of authenticity, do you actually bake bread?

I haven't for a long time.

Why does this possibly matter to this discussion?

Steve

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Steve Pope
Why does this possibly matter to this discussion?

I'm still back a step, wondering what the concept of "authenticity"
has to do with anything.

[Steve Pope]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
I'm still back a step, wondering what the concept of "authenticity"
has to do with anything.

Depends on whether one is interested in the question, "Can
non-100% whole wheat bread authentically be called whole wheat?"

But maybe there's a better word than "authentic". Perhaps
"accurate".

Steve

[Martin Frankel]

Post by Steve Pope
Why does this possibly matter to this discussion?

If you actually try baking and eating bread made from scratch strictly
with whole wheat flour, I think you would find in yourself a measure of
linguistic open-mindedness that has so far been lacking.

Martin

[Steve Pope]

Post by Martin Frankel
If you actually try baking and eating bread made from scratch strictly
with whole wheat flour, I think you would find in yourself a measure
of linguistic open-mindedness that has so far been lacking.

I think we all agree that white-bread breadmaking techniques
fail if you use all whole wheat flour. But there are other
techniques that apparently work.

I'll allow for the possibility that it is a difficult task
for the homebaker -- I'm uncertain of this, but commercial bakers
seem to be able to do it.

Steve
so it.

[ll]

if it's "whole wheat" then it's whole wheat, or else it is
mislabled. ... Then these recipes are mis-named.

It's an expression.

The Fannie Farmer Cookbook:
"Whole Wheat Bread -- 2 cups whole wheat flour,
4 cups white flour"

The New Basics Cookbook:
"Walnut Raisin Whole Wheat Bread -- 2 cups whole wheat
flour, 2 1/2 - 3 cups all purpose flour"

The Joy of Cooking:
"Whole Grain Bread -- 4 cups whole grain flour,
4 cups all purpose flour"

Probably most "whole wheat bread" recipes are 50-50.
There _are_ recipes with 100% whole wheat flour,
but you have to do additional things to get them to rise
like 50-50 or white bread recipes (e.g., extra risings,
longer rise time, etc.).

[Tom Malcolm]

Post by Steve Pope
Yes, but it's difficult to determine whether this is a whole
wheat crust, or contains mostly white flour.

The important part of wheat bread is how much fiber.
I only eat bread with 5 grams of fiber per slice -
you can find it at almost any store - tastes good
to me - yes it has some white flour - but it has
5 grams of fiber - from the whole wheat - so that's
good enough for me.

Hey, if you like sweets and whole wheat - try
getting some raw, unchemicaled (is that a word)
wheat at sprouting.com or sproutpeople.com and
try sprouting your own wheat - takes just water
and 2-3 days - they taste sweet - too sweet for
,me, but you can't beat that for freshness and
a guarantee of no white flour!

[Glenn S. Tenney KCTJ CISSP]

Post by Enzo Lombard-Quintero
A month-long guest is on the South Beach Diet (sort of like Atkins I think)
and wondered if there was a place that did whole wheat crust

A month or two ago, while picking up an order of BBQ, the owner at Windy
City Pizza (San Mateo, near El Camino and Route 92) mentioned that he
was about to introduce a lower-carb pizza made -- I think that he said
he was using soy-flour for the dough.

So, you could try it and see... your guest could have the low carb, and
then you could have the regular -- with a couple of dozen beers, ales,
and ciders on tap too!