Restaurant suggestions in Berkeley near Addison and Shattuck

[LurfysMa]

I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Thanks

[Serene]

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Downtown restaurant is on that corner. I've heard it's very good and
pretty pricey. http://www.downtownrestaurant.com/

I've also heard that Cha Ya is good:
http://www.shopinberkeley.com/c/chaya/index.php

(Usually, when we eat in that part of Berkeley, and it's pretty often
that we do, we go pretty downscale -- Tuk Tuk Thai is good, but it's
only really interesting because there's a tuktuk in the dining room.
The Original [Not Mel's Any More] is just diner food, but we like it.
And Anzu sushi has the nicest staff anywhere and very fresh,
inexpensive sushi, but it's nothing extra-special.)

serene

[Steve Pope]

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) of
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

You could go for either Le Theatre or Downtown if you're looking
for a nice dinner that's really nearby and the price levels are
okay. Other things being equal, I'd lean towards Le Theatre,
since you're more likely to get dragged to Downtown sometime
in the eventual future, and Le Theatre probably has the more
attentive kitchen.

Another possibility is Venus. Or, as Serene stated, Cha-ya if you
are happy with a tiny seating area, a probable wait, no ability
to reserve ahead, and a bit more of a walk. Expanding the
walking range also would bring Venezia under consideration,
or even Cesar.

Steve

[Serene]

Post by Steve Pope
Another possibility is Venus.

Just don't go there during brunch. The lines are out the door for
yards and yards.

serene

[Ciccio]

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Geezus, even a staunch Republican capitalist pig like me knows about
Beserkley's "Gourmet Ghetto." Though, the intersection to which you refer
may be a tad south of its border. I'll let some pinko like Charlotte
chime in with the precise geographical coordinates.

To answer the call of your question...try the "Jazz Cafe" it's near the
intersection to which you refer. It's sorta good/unusual/interesting.

Ciccio

[LurfysMa]

Post by Ciccio

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Geezus, even a staunch Republican capitalist pig like me knows about
Beserkley's "Gourmet Ghetto." Though, the intersection to which you refer
may be a tad south of its border. I'll let some pinko like Charlotte
chime in with the precise geographical coordinates.
To answer the call of your question...try the "Jazz Cafe" it's near the
intersection to which you refer. It's sorta good/unusual/interesting.
Ciccio

Thank you all for your suggestions. We'll do one of them and report
back.

[Charlotte L. Blackmer]

Post by Ciccio

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Geezus, even a staunch Republican capitalist pig like me knows about
Beserkley's "Gourmet Ghetto." Though, the intersection to which you refer
may be a tad south of its border. I'll let some pinko like Charlotte

If you're referring to me, Coach, it's "pink" not "pinko" ... I'm pretty
conservative by local standards ;).

Post by Ciccio
chime in with the precise geographical coordinates.

Four-five blocks north is the south edge of the GG. Lots of good eats
within five blocks of Shattuck and Addison.

Post by Ciccio
To answer the call of your question...try the "Jazz Cafe" it's near the
intersection to which you refer. It's sorta good/unusual/interesting.

I had an unusual, interesting, and surprisingly good dining experience at
Cafe Gratitude on Shattuck the other night. My expectations were not high
because it's a vegan raw/live New Age place and I had to wonder if
"concept" was more important than "execution" (not to mention doing raw
vegan is challenging). But the food was tasty. I shared the Mexican
"pizza" (a flatbread with a lot of avocado on it), the sampler plate, the
Mediterranean plate (the "hummus" was yummus) and had chocolate "mousse"
and tea for dessert.

The concept in dish-naming is to name them after affirmations, which I
thought was very hokey when I was ordering, but it was heckafun to hear
the kitchen staff tell the waitstaff their orders were up. "Jessica!
Gorgeous, dazzling, sensational!"

Menu at: http://www.withthecurrent.com/menu.html

The restaurant is just south of Virginia street (which is north of Addison
and University).

I keep meaning to go to Venus for brunch - wonder if the crowds might thin
out somewhat in the summertime.

Charlotte
http://loveandcooking.blogspot.com
--

[Steve Pope]

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer

Post by Ciccio

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Geezus, even a staunch Republican capitalist pig like me knows about
Beserkley's "Gourmet Ghetto." Though, the intersection to which
you refer may be a tad south of its border. I'll let some pinko
like Charlotte

If you're referring to me, Coach, it's "pink" not "pinko" ... I'm
pretty conservative by local standards ;).

I'm not so sure, Berkeley is veering ever further to the political
right. Look at all the "traffic calmers" going in. Ran across
two new ones in west Berkeley just today. Isn't it rightist to
dictate exacty which routes one may take through town?

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer
I had an unusual, interesting, and surprisingly good dining
experience at Cafe Gratitude on Shattuck the other night.
My expectations were not high because it's a vegan raw/live
New Age place and I had to wonder if "concept" was more
important than "execution" (not to mention doing raw vegan is
challenging). But the food was tasty. I shared the Mexican
"pizza" (a flatbread with a lot of avocado on it), the sampler
plate, the Mediterranean plate (the "hummus" was yummus) and
had chocolate "mousse" and tea for dessert.
The concept in dish-naming is to name them after affirmations,
which I thought was very hokey when I was ordering, but it was
heckafun to hear the kitchen staff tell the waitstaff their
orders were up. "Jessica! Gorgeous, dazzling, sensational!"

Good to hear it was okay. This week's Express included a review
with a title something like "I am repulsed". (That's not quite
right, but close.) I will have to drag myself in the, sometime
eventually.

BTW, Ciccio, I think the correct name of the other establisment
to which you referred is "Anna's Jazz Bistro".

Steve

[Steve Pope]

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer

Post by Ciccio

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Geezus, even a staunch Republican capitalist pig like me knows about
Beserkley's "Gourmet Ghetto." Though, the intersection to which
you refer may be a tad south of its border. I'll let some pinko
like Charlotte

If you're referring to me, Coach, it's "pink" not "pinko" ... I'm
pretty conservative by local standards ;).

I'm not so sure, Berkeley is veering ever further to the political
right. Look at all the "traffic calmers" going in. Ran across
two new ones in west Berkeley just today. Isn't it rightist to
dictate exacty which routes one may take through town?

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer
I had an unusual, interesting, and surprisingly good dining
experience at Cafe Gratitude on Shattuck the other night.
My expectations were not high because it's a vegan raw/live
New Age place and I had to wonder if "concept" was more
important than "execution" (not to mention doing raw vegan is
challenging). But the food was tasty. I shared the Mexican
"pizza" (a flatbread with a lot of avocado on it), the sampler
plate, the Mediterranean plate (the "hummus" was yummus) and
had chocolate "mousse" and tea for dessert.
The concept in dish-naming is to name them after affirmations,
which I thought was very hokey when I was ordering, but it was
heckafun to hear the kitchen staff tell the waitstaff their
orders were up. "Jessica! Gorgeous, dazzling, sensational!"

Good to hear it was okay. This week's Express included a review
with a title something like "I am repulsed". (That's not quite
right, but close.) I will have to drag myself in there, sometime
eventually.

BTW, Ciccio, I think the name of the other establisment
to which you refer is "Anna's Jazz Bistro".

Steve

[LurfysMa]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer

Post by Ciccio

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Geezus, even a staunch Republican capitalist pig like me knows about
Beserkley's "Gourmet Ghetto." Though, the intersection to which
you refer may be a tad south of its border. I'll let some pinko
like Charlotte

If you're referring to me, Coach, it's "pink" not "pinko" ... I'm
pretty conservative by local standards ;).

I'm not so sure, Berkeley is veering ever further to the political
right. Look at all the "traffic calmers" going in. Ran across
two new ones in west Berkeley just today. Isn't it rightist to
dictate exacty which routes one may take through town?

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer
I had an unusual, interesting, and surprisingly good dining
experience at Cafe Gratitude on Shattuck the other night.
My expectations were not high because it's a vegan raw/live
New Age place and I had to wonder if "concept" was more
important than "execution" (not to mention doing raw vegan is
challenging). But the food was tasty. I shared the Mexican
"pizza" (a flatbread with a lot of avocado on it), the sampler
plate, the Mediterranean plate (the "hummus" was yummus) and
had chocolate "mousse" and tea for dessert.
The concept in dish-naming is to name them after affirmations,
which I thought was very hokey when I was ordering, but it was
heckafun to hear the kitchen staff tell the waitstaff their
orders were up. "Jessica! Gorgeous, dazzling, sensational!"

Good to hear it was okay. This week's Express included a review
with a title something like "I am repulsed". (That's not quite
right, but close.) I will have to drag myself in there, sometime
eventually.
BTW, Ciccio, I think the name of the other establisment
to which you refer is "Anna's Jazz Bistro".
Steve

I can't speak for Ciccio, but there is a restaurant right on Stattuck
and Addison named "Jazzcaffe".

According to their website, http://www.jazzcaffe.biz/, they are in the
Jazzschool. Since that's where we are going, that would be handy.

[Steve Pope]

Post by LurfysMa

Post by Steve Pope
BTW, Ciccio, I think the name of the other establisment
to which you refer is "Anna's Jazz Bistro".

I can't speak for Ciccio, but there is a restaurant right on Stattuck
and Addison named "Jazzcaffe".
According to their website, http://www.jazzcaffe.biz/, they are in the
Jazzschool. Since that's where we are going, that would be handy.

Okay, thanks. A different place entirely from Anna's.

Steve

[Ciccio]

Post by LurfysMa

Post by Steve Pope
BTW, Ciccio, I think the name of the other establisment
to which you refer is "Anna's Jazz Bistro".

I can't speak for Ciccio, but there is a restaurant right on Stattuck
and Addison named "Jazzcaffe".

In this instance, you certainly may...that is the place to which I was
referring.

Post by LurfysMa
According to their website, http://www.jazzcaffe.biz/, they are in the
Jazzschool. Since that's where we are going, that would be handy.

Heh. I guess I hit the bull's-eye with that one.

Ciccio

[LurfysMa]

Post by Ciccio

Post by LurfysMa

Post by Steve Pope
BTW, Ciccio, I think the name of the other establisment
to which you refer is "Anna's Jazz Bistro".

I can't speak for Ciccio, but there is a restaurant right on Stattuck
and Addison named "Jazzcaffe".

In this instance, you certainly may...that is the place to which I was
referring.

Post by LurfysMa
According to their website, http://www.jazzcaffe.biz/, they are in the
Jazzschool. Since that's where we are going, that would be handy.

Heh. I guess I hit the bull's-eye with that one.

Even a stopped watch is correct twice a day (on average). ;-)

[Ciccio]

Post by LurfysMa
Even a stopped watch is correct twice a day (on average). ;-)

Geez, a woman who not only likes jazz and fine food, but feels a man can be
right twice per day...I can just see the marriage proposals flooding your
e-mail box. ;-)

Ciccio

[LurfysMa]

Post by Ciccio

Post by LurfysMa
Even a stopped watch is correct twice a day (on average). ;-)

Geez, a woman who not only likes jazz and fine food, but feels a man can be
right twice per day...

Only if he is completely stopped. A man who loses a minute a day would
only be right about every 4 years!

I'm sure you have seen the t-shirt that asks, "If a man is standing in
a forest and says something and there is no woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?".

Post by Ciccio
I can just see the marriage proposals flooding your e-mail box. ;-)

Nothing so far...

[Charlotte L. Blackmer]

Post by Steve Pope

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer

Post by Ciccio

Post by LurfysMa
I would appreciate suggestions for restaurants that are either very
good or unusual/interesting within walking distance (4-5 blocks) or
Addison and Shattuck in Berkeley.

Geezus, even a staunch Republican capitalist pig like me knows about
Beserkley's "Gourmet Ghetto." Though, the intersection to which
you refer may be a tad south of its border. I'll let some pinko
like Charlotte

If you're referring to me, Coach, it's "pink" not "pinko" ... I'm
pretty conservative by local standards ;).

I'm not so sure, Berkeley is veering ever further to the political
right. Look at all the "traffic calmers" going in. Ran across
two new ones in west Berkeley just today. Isn't it rightist to
dictate exacty which routes one may take through town?

I think of that as a hyper-lefty NIMBY thing.

I have the damn traffic circles in my Westside neighborhood now, a sure
sign of our gentrification. They kept the stop signs too, a sure sign
that nobody in the city offices has a clue about actual logistics.
*daughter and sister of civil engineer grumbles*

Post by Steve Pope

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer
I had an unusual, interesting, and surprisingly good dining
experience at Cafe Gratitude on Shattuck the other night.
My expectations were not high because it's a vegan raw/live
New Age place and I had to wonder if "concept" was more
important than "execution" (not to mention doing raw vegan is
challenging). But the food was tasty. I shared the Mexican
"pizza" (a flatbread with a lot of avocado on it), the sampler
plate, the Mediterranean plate (the "hummus" was yummus) and
had chocolate "mousse" and tea for dessert.
The concept in dish-naming is to name them after affirmations,
which I thought was very hokey when I was ordering, but it was
heckafun to hear the kitchen staff tell the waitstaff their
orders were up. "Jessica! Gorgeous, dazzling, sensational!"

Good to hear it was okay. This week's Express included a review
with a title something like "I am repulsed". (That's not quite
right, but close.) I will have to drag myself in there, sometime
eventually.

I will say that it's not the best meal I've had on Shattuck Avenue but it
was fun to see. I was with my best friend so I could laugh over some of
the excesses.


Charlotte
--

[Steve Pope]

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer

Post by Steve Pope
I'm not so sure, Berkeley is veering ever further to the political
right. Look at all the "traffic calmers" going in. Ran across
two new ones in west Berkeley just today. Isn't it rightist to
dictate exacty which routes one may take through town?

I think of that as a hyper-lefty NIMBY thing.

Perhaps NIMBY-ism cannot be characterized as leftist or rightist.

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer
I have the damn traffic circles in my Westside neighborhood now, a sure
sign of our gentrification. They kept the stop signs too, a sure sign
that nobody in the city offices has a clue about actual logistics.
*daughter and sister of civil engineer grumbles*

My main complaint with the circles is that traffic veering around
them stands an increased chance of striking a pedestrian, or so
it seems to me. My secondary complaint is they are a vastly
expensive project, which receives priority even as potholes and
uneven sidewalks stand in need of repair. Apparently you
can get federal co-funding for them, or something.

I'm just thankful I'm not in a "creeks study area".

Steve

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Steve Pope
Perhaps NIMBY-ism cannot be characterized as leftist or rightist.

More precisely, whether it's leftist or rightist depends on the
object of the NIMBYism in question. Not wanting a homeless shelter
in one's neighborhood because of the presence of bums is more right-
wing than left. Not wanting a bar next door to a women's resource
center because some of the women might've been battered by men who'd
been drinking is more left-wing than right (leftists are big on sym-
bolism; right-wingers are more focused on the practical aspects of
things).

Post by Steve Pope
My main complaint with the circles is that traffic veering around
them stands an increased chance of striking a pedestrian, or so
it seems to me.

Well, the point of installing them is to slow down traffic, and
the conventioal wisdom is that slower-moving cars are less likely
to hit pedestrians.

Post by Steve Pope
I'm just thankful I'm not in a "creeks study area".

That would beat living on a "daylight test section," at least.

ObTim: I'm a felon. I don't turn on my headlights while driving
through daylight test sections.



Geoff

[Max Hauser]

. . .
I'm not so sure, Berkeley is veering ever further to the political right.
Look at all the "traffic calmers" going in. Ran across two new ones in
west Berkeley just today. Isn't it rightist to dictate exacty which
routes one may take through town?

I beg your pardon, Steve! Of course you may have been ironic or rhetorical
there. But even someone who did not live in Berkeley when the original
major traffic-diverter system arrived (in the 1970s) can still be reasonably
expected to've picked up, from local contact or general reading, that (a)
the program was the product of an activist leftist city government, and (b)
more generally, efforts to social-engineer, or even to "re-shape" human
nature, in the 20th century are traditionally explicitly leftist. Often
with an air of morality, or higher insight, attached [1]. The purest
expressions being concepts like Socialist Man.

When the diverters came in at that time, they had the effect of favoring
some streets, and screwing others. Which if you view it from enough
distance and dispassion, was the essential situation before the diverters.
Like most social policies, this one's effect was two-edged, and was praised
by those favored, cursed by those screwed. The policy also introduced a new
element of driver frustration, when people encountered amazing, improbable
cases of You Can't Get There From Here. Approaching Sunnyvalian
proportions. Though in Sunnyvale's case, the obstacles are not small
diverters at intersections, but blobs of independent suburban housing
development with labyrinthine culs-de-sac into which innocent drivers stray,
never to be heard from again.


--------
[1] Example from the Stalin-apologia collection:

Maurice Hindus, _The Great Offensive, _ 1933 (New York: Smith and Haas).
Hindus is behind perhaps only Beatrice and Sidney Webb among
English-language writers who helped to "sell" Stalin and his New Society to
a generation of idealistic Western publics in the 1930s. He also repudiated
some of his positions later. But this 1933 book contains eloquent,
romanticizing prose on the painful but noble "efforts of the Communist Party
and of the Soviets to recast human society and to reconstruct the human
personality."

[j***@yahoo.com]

I've lived in the Sunnyvale/Mountain View area for 25 years now,
and have never noticed any of these, of have ever had any fustrations
getting someplace.

(Except, perhaps, for the one barrior on Washington Ave. that is on the
boarder
of Sunnyvale/Mountain View).

Maybe the reason is, unless you are visiting someone inside one
of these develpements, you have no reason to even to into them.
I.e., if you stay on major or even fairly minor arteries, you won't
be ensnared.

Which is not my experience with travel through Berkeley.

The main thing I've always notice when in to Berkeley is that every
person
there must have 3 or 4 automobiles, since every parking spot
in the whole town is always taken.
I've never seen any place that has so many cars,
and yet at the same time spends so little on keeping
its streets clear of pot-holes.

Post by Max Hauser
The policy also introduced a new
element of driver frustration, when people encountered amazing, improbable
cases of You Can't Get There From Here. Approaching Sunnyvalian
proportions. Though in Sunnyvale's case, the obstacles are not small
diverters at intersections, but blobs of independent suburban housing
development with labyrinthine culs-de-sac into which innocent drivers stray,
never to be heard from again.

[Tak Nakamoto]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
The main thing I've always notice when in to Berkeley is that every
person
there must have 3 or 4 automobiles, since every parking spot
in the whole town is always taken.
I've never seen any place that has so many cars,
and yet at the same time spends so little on keeping
its streets clear of pot-holes.

As a long time Berkeley resident, I've always found it exasperating that my
fellow residents seem to feel that the overpopulation of cars and heavy
traffic are caused by "other" people. These "outsiders," be they be from out
of town or from other neighborhoods in Berkeley are thought to be the source
of our problems, most especially the shortage of parking.

So we have diverters, speed bumps, permit parking in some neighborhoods and
now tiny roundabouts at some intersections to discourage speedy traffic.

We seem to overlook the fact that most of the cars we see on our streets in
town are local. Most of the vehicle traffic is local. Most trips that most
drivers take other than their commutes are very short.

I don't mean to downplay the amount of commute traffic we have coming into
Berkeley. There is a lot of incoming traffic. But I'd guess roughly about a
half of Berkeley's working population works outside of Berkeley. So they
cause congestion in other cities.

The lack of self reflection is puzzling.

Tak Nakamoto

[Max Hauser]

"Tak Nakamoto" in news:56e%f.2639$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

[Thanks for your thoughtful additions to this newsgroup, by the way, Tak.]

Post by Tak Nakamoto
. . .
The lack of self reflection is puzzling.

Also of course very human.

When I worked for a large firm that invested (almost frenetically) in
training its employees, for one or another skill deemed useful, an
outstanding expert was brought in to train us on human communications in the
workplace. [Worth his weight in gold to any such firm, I'd say, by the
way.] By demonstrations and exercises and even eloquent pantomime, he gave
us to see many things that people do, but don't realize. One of those
things, labeled "externalizing" (a standard term in that line, maybe), was
the habit, when people deal with problems important to them, of looking
everywhere for causes, except in a mirror.

[Jeff Lichtman]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
The main thing I've always notice when in to Berkeley is that every
person
there must have 3 or 4 automobiles, since every parking spot
in the whole town is always taken.

This is a legacy of the Gus Newport days when they prohibited businesses
from putting in off-street parking, with the idea that easy parking
encourages driving. As a result, workers and shoppers in Berkeley often
have no choice but to park on the street.

Two wheels good, four wheels bad!

[Steve Pope]

Post by Jeff Lichtman
This is a legacy of the Gus Newport days when they prohibited
businesses from putting in off-street parking, with the idea
that easy parking encourages driving. As a result, workers
and shoppers in Berkeley often have no choice but to park on
the street.
Two wheels good, four wheels bad!

Here's the amusing part:

The city does not provide employee parking for all its employees,
nor does the city allow parking beyond a limit of four hours
or so in many of its neighborhoods, including the city center where
many civic employees work, unless you are a resident with a sticker.

So, each morning the city has people driving city vehicles
randomly around Berkeley, looking for city employees who may have
parked their cars in an outlying neighboorhood and are walking
to work, to offer them a ride in to City Hall or wherever their
workplace is.

And of course, these randomly-routed city vehicles have to
drive circuitous routes around the traffic barriers to get
anywhere.

Steve

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Jeff Lichtman
This is a legacy of the Gus Newport days when they prohibited businesses
from putting in off-street parking, with the idea that easy parking
encourages driving.

The horror!

An excellent example of this mindset from across the Bay is
PacBell Park (or whatever they're calling it this week).



Geoff

[Max Hauser]

Hi jswatson -- saw a second later version arrive of this posting from you,
but I'll reply to the first.

amazing, improbable cases of You Can't Get There From Here. Approaching
Sunnyvalian proportions. Though in Sunnyvale's case, the obstacles are
not small diverters at intersections, but blobs of independent suburban
housing development with labyrinthine culs-de-sac into which innocent
drivers stray, never to be heard from again.
I've lived in the Sunnyvale/Mountain View area for 25 years now, and have
never noticed any of these, of have ever had any fustrations getting
someplace. ...

Of course not! This is explained above. We know you did not encounter any
of those labyrinths, because you are here to testify.

You must not be so innocent.

C'est logique! --Max


(Somewhere Sherlock Holmes said that you have crime and poverty in city
slums; but also you have community and human warmth there. To find real
evil, you must go to the suburbs.)

[Geoff Miller]

I've lived in the Sunnyvale/Mountain View area for 25 years now, and
have never noticed any of these, of have ever had any fustrations
getting someplace.

There are several circular planters placed in the middle of inter-
sections in "old Mountain View," the residential neighborhood just
east of downtown. Also, the stretch of Dana between Calderon and
Bush, which is often used as an access route to and from downtown,
has two or three large-radius speed bumps on it.

I find it evidentiary of traffic engineers' cluelessness that these
things are known as "traffic calming" devices. It'd be more accurate
to call them *driver annoying* devices. I'm sure there's some subset
of the driving population who takes them as a challenge, and who try
to see how quickly they can get through them.

Mountain View also seems to have gone crazy with automated traffic
radar (advisory only, not photo radar). There's one on Whisman near
that elementary school opposite the fire station, another on Dana
near Calderon, at another elementary school, and a third on Castro
near Graham Middle School.



Geoff

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Geoff Miller
Mountain View also seems to have gone crazy with automated traffic
radar (advisory only, not photo radar). There's one on Whisman near
that elementary school opposite the fire station, another on Dana
near Calderon, at another elementary school, and a third on Castro
near Graham Middle School.

Yeah, the schools like those. They say they notice a lot less speeding
past the school, especially when the kids are going to/from school,
which was the concern. Supposedly they work.

[Steve Pope]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Geoff Miller
Mountain View also seems to have gone crazy with automated traffic
radar (advisory only, not photo radar). There's one on Whisman near
that elementary school opposite the fire station, another on Dana
near Calderon, at another elementary school, and a third on Castro
near Graham Middle School.

Yeah, the schools like those. They say they notice a lot less speeding
past the school, especially when the kids are going to/from school,
which was the concern. Supposedly they work.

In Northern Virginia, when the traffic radar picks up a
speeder, it changes the light cycle so that the next
signal light ahead of him turns red. Are they doing
that here yet?

Steve

[Todd Michel McComb]

In Northern Virginia, when the traffic radar picks up a speeder,
it changes the light cycle so that the next signal light ahead of
him turns red. Are they doing that here yet?

Not in Mountain View, no. They just have the "your speed..."
stand-alone radar signs.

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Steve Pope
In Northern Virginia, when the traffic radar picks up a
speeder, it changes the light cycle so that the next
signal light ahead of him turns red. Are they doing
that here yet?

Not that I've heard of, but if they do, it'll probably
start in car-hostile Sham Francisco (tm Mr. Natural).

I've seen something similar. Heading south on the Great
Highway,all the signals are green by default. As soon as
they sense a car approaching, they turn red -- whether or
not there's any cross traffic or pedestrians. Now, what
could possibly be the purpose of that, except to spite
drivers?



Geoff

[Phil Keller]

Post by Geoff Miller

Post by Steve Pope
In Northern Virginia, when the traffic radar picks up a
speeder, it changes the light cycle so that the next
signal light ahead of him turns red. Are they doing
that here yet?

Not that I've heard of, but if they do, it'll probably
start in car-hostile Sham Francisco (tm Mr. Natural).
I've seen something similar. Heading south on the Great
Highway,all the signals are green by default. As soon as
they sense a car approaching, they turn red -- whether or
not there's any cross traffic or pedestrians. Now, what
could possibly be the purpose of that, except to spite
drivers?
Geoff

The San Francisco Board of Supervisors is secretly debating the merits
of a proactive traffic ticketing program. Each licensed driver who lives
or works in the City will be issued a number of citations at the
beginning of the each year.. It is expected that each will be cited for
three parking tickets and two moving violations. Those cited would have
to pay the fines or go to court to prove their innocence.

[Reg]

Post by Geoff Miller

Post by Steve Pope
In Northern Virginia, when the traffic radar picks up a
speeder, it changes the light cycle so that the next
signal light ahead of him turns red. Are they doing
that here yet

Not that I've heard of, but if they do, it'll probably
start in car-hostile Sham Francisco (tm Mr. Natural).
I've seen something similar. Heading south on the Great
Highway,all the signals are green by default. As soon as
they sense a car approaching, they turn red -- whether or
not there's any cross traffic or pedestrians. Now, what
could possibly be the purpose of that, except to spite
drivers?

What you're seeing are actually timed traffic lights. They're
synchronized to create a certain rate of traffic flow. In
this case I believe it's 35 MPH.

It only appears the cars are triggering the lights. What's
actually happening is that smarter drivers have learned to
drive with the light cycle, so they get to the light just
as it's turning green. Notice that when someone exceeds
the target speed and gets to a light "early" they're forced
to stop on red.

I always chuckle when people whip by me trying to get
somewhere quickly. Doesn't work on GH. Everybody ends
up going about a 35 MPH net rate.

[Geoff Miller]

Reg <***@nospam.com> writes:

: I've seen something similar. Heading south on the Great
: Highway,all the signals are green by default. As soon as
: they sense a car approaching, they turn red -- whether or
: not there's any cross traffic or pedestrians. Now, what
: could possibly be the purpose of that, except to spite
: drivers?

Post by Reg
What you're seeing are actually timed traffic lights. They're
synchronized to create a certain rate of traffic flow. In
this case I believe it's 35 MPH.

Lots of lights are timed for a certain speed. A series of
lights being green by default, for the length of the road
as far as I could see, and then turning red when a car was
sensed approaching, is above and beyond mere speed regulation.
And it was the presence of the car that the lights were res-
ponding to, not its speed. I've never seen that anywhere else.

A pet peeve of mine is traffic signals that turn red at random,
despite the absence of cross traffic. Several lights on Lafay-
ette Street in Santa Clara on either side of Montague Expressway
were like that. It would've been annoying anytime, but it was
particularly absurd to have to stop for a red light at five o'clock
in the morning when mine was the only car on that stretch of road.
So I enlisted the help of Mr. Roadshow. Gary passed my email
along to a contact of his in the Ministry Of Traffic Lights or
wherever, and the problem was fixed.



Geoff

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Geoff Miller
A pet peeve of mine is traffic signals that turn red at random,
despite the absence of cross traffic.

They seem to have recently converted a side road near me into this
sort of light, instead of one that only changes when cross traffic
appears. I can't say as I'm particularly amused.

[Al Eisner]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Geoff Miller
A pet peeve of mine is traffic signals that turn red at random,
despite the absence of cross traffic.

They seem to have recently converted a side road near me into this
sort of light, instead of one that only changes when cross traffic
appears. I can't say as I'm particularly amused.

Many years ago, I was convinced that several lights (as I recall it,
the one closest to SLAC) simply intended to stay red for waiting traffic.
Only when a car approached on the cross street did the light -- fooled
into stopping the oncoming traffic -- turn green for the initial driver.

[Steve Pope]

Post by Al Eisner

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Geoff Miller
A pet peeve of mine is traffic signals that turn red at random,
despite the absence of cross traffic.

They seem to have recently converted a side road near me into this
sort of light, instead of one that only changes when cross traffic
appears. I can't say as I'm particularly amused.

Many years ago, I was convinced that several lights (as I recall it,
the one closest to SLAC) simply intended to stay red for waiting traffic.
Only when a car approached on the cross street did the light -- fooled
into stopping the oncoming traffic -- turn green for the initial driver.

In introductory electrical engineering classes, one of the
first problems college freshman are always given is to design the
logic for a traffic light controller. I'm convinced some
of these designs made it into production.

S.

[Joe Petolino]

Post by Geoff Miller
Lots of lights are timed for a certain speed. A series of
lights being green by default, for the length of the road
as far as I could see, and then turning red when a car was
sensed approaching, is above and beyond mere speed regulation.
And it was the presence of the car that the lights were res-
ponding to, not its speed. I've never seen that anywhere else.

We've had one kind of like that in my neighborhood for years, in front
of a middle school. At certain times of day it's normally red, but
turns green as soon as you've arrived at the intersection. A virtual
stop sign, I guess, but one which drivers are more likely to stop for.

-Joe

[j***@yahoo.com]

I've lived in the Sunnyvale/Mountain View area for 25 years now,
and have never noticed any of these.

Maybe the reason is, unless you are visiting someone inside one
of these develpements, you have no reason to even to into them.
I.e., if you stay on major or even fairly minor arteries, you won't
be ensnared.

Which is not my experience with travel through Berkeley.

The main thing I've always notice when in to Berkeley is that every
person
there must have 3 or 4 automobiles, since every parking spot
in the whole town is always taken.
I've never seen any place that has so many cars,
and yet at the same time spends so little on keeping
its streets clear of pot-holes.

Post by Max Hauser
When the diverters came in at that time, they had the effect of favoring
some streets, and screwing others. Which if you view it from enough
distance and dispassion, was the essential situation before the diverters.
Like most social policies, this one's effect was two-edged, and was praised
by those favored, cursed by those screwed. The policy also introduced a new
element of driver frustration, when people encountered amazing, improbable
cases of You Can't Get There From Here. Approaching Sunnyvalian
proportions. Though in Sunnyvale's case, the obstacles are not small
diverters at intersections, but blobs of independent suburban housing
development with labyrinthine culs-de-sac into which innocent drivers stray,
never to be heard from again.

[Leila]

Post by j***@yahoo.com
The main thing I've always notice when in to Berkeley is that every
person
there must have 3 or 4 automobiles, since every parking spot
in the whole town is always taken.
I've never seen any place that has so many cars,
and yet at the same time spends so little on keeping
its streets clear of pot-holes.

When we lived in the Gourmet Ghetto, (2 different locations on Grant
Street, 4 blocks or so from Chez Panisse) we noticed that a certain
guitar store owner kept a huge collection of antique cars, most of
which were stenciled with clouds; said cars were parked in two
locations within blocks of each other -- store and home. People
complained about it but nothing was done. And of course the store
owner, a good Berkeley hippie, drove at least one car per day between
home and work, while his girlfriend and I suppose other buddies and
acolytes drove the others. You know, drop in, have some beers, play
guitar, drive off to the grocery store, etc. THere was always a
perpetual turnover of cars, and never enough parking spaces.

Luckily I was new to car culture at the time and just didn't care much.


Gee i sound like a libertarian crank today. I'm not against anti-car
legislation. What bugs me about Berkeley-ites is that they say they
want fewer cars, more public transit use, but so many of them bitch and
sue and complain about infill apartment blocks going up on arteries
(served by transit!) like San Pablo and University. Seems to me that if
you really want to support smart development, you would want to see
denser buildings in the city so as to spare outlying farmland. Right?

Leila

[Steve Pope]

Post by Max Hauser

Post by Steve Pope
I'm not so sure, Berkeley is veering ever further to the
political right. Look at all the "traffic calmers" going in.
Ran across two new ones in west Berkeley just today. Isn't it
rightist to dictate exacty which routes one may take through
town?

I beg your pardon, Steve! Of course you may have been
ironic or rhetorical there. But even someone who did not live
in Berkeley when the original major traffic-diverter system
arrived (in the 1970s) can still be reasonably expected to've
picked up, from local contact or general reading, that (a) the
program was the product of an activist leftist city government,
and (b) more generally, efforts to social-engineer, or even to
"re-shape" human nature, in the 20th century are traditionally
explicitly leftist.

I did live in Berkeley for a bit in 1977. Not that I followed local
politics closely.

While I do concur that any Berkeley city government at the time
was leftist/activist, they are much more moderate now, yet the
number of barriers going up the past year far eclipses the modest
mid-70's effort.

Whether social engineering is generally or usually the province
of leftists, I'm not ready to touch that one.

Steve

[Pete Fraser]

Post by Steve Pope
While I do concur that any Berkeley city government at the time
was leftist/activist, they are much more moderate now, yet the
number of barriers going up the past year far eclipses the modest
mid-70's effort.

I went to a talk about a week ago, given by the traffic guy in
Berkeley. He was quite interesting, and seemed a reasonable
and intellegent guy. He was the traffic guy in Toronto until he came
to Berkeley mumble years ago.

His favorite "traffic calming" measure is speed bumps (a.k.a.
sleeping policemen in the UK.) However, following an outcry
from residents over broken suspensions, and an incident when
a guy was thrown from a fire truck, there is a ban on any more
installations. He has to use road "diets", traffic circles and such.

[Steve Pope]

Post by Pete Fraser
I went to a talk about a week ago, given by the traffic guy in
Berkeley. He was quite interesting, and seemed a reasonable
and intellegent guy. He was the traffic guy in Toronto until he came
to Berkeley mumble years ago.
His favorite "traffic calming" measure is speed bumps (a.k.a.
sleeping policemen in the UK.) However, following an outcry
from residents over broken suspensions, and an incident when
a guy was thrown from a fire truck, there is a ban on any more
installations. He has to use road "diets", traffic circles and such.

Sounds reasonable. There are speed bumps on our block, and
I wonder if they are responsible for our Nissan again needing
suspension work. Or maybe the Nissan is wimpy a design, or something.

I still consider the speed bumps safer. No cats run over on the
block since they went in.

Steve

[Al Eisner]

Post by Pete Fraser

Post by Steve Pope
While I do concur that any Berkeley city government at the time
was leftist/activist, they are much more moderate now, yet the
number of barriers going up the past year far eclipses the modest
mid-70's effort.

I went to a talk about a week ago, given by the traffic guy in
Berkeley. He was quite interesting, and seemed a reasonable
and intellegent guy. He was the traffic guy in Toronto until he came
to Berkeley mumble years ago.
His favorite "traffic calming" measure is speed bumps (a.k.a.
sleeping policemen in the UK.) However, following an outcry
from residents over broken suspensions, and an incident when
a guy was thrown from a fire truck, there is a ban on any more
installations. He has to use road "diets", traffic circles and such.

This fetish of "traffic calming" seems to have infected many city
traffic departments. It really has little to do with left/right
politics, and more to do with people inventing solutions for nonexistent
problems, without thinking them through.

About 5 years ago, based on complaints from a few residents, Redwood
City unveiled a plan to reduce the number of lanes each way from two
to one on a major thoroughfare. No consideration was given to where
the traffic would go instead, nor to the dangerous tailgating likely
to ensue on a steep downhill stretch; and the arguments for this
"solution" seemed specious. It seems not to have occurred to them
that gratuitously annoying drivers is not a way to "calm" traffic.
They called a town-hall meeting to get further feedback -- and were
overwhelmed by an overflowing hall of (mostly) opponents. The plan
hasn't been heard of since.

More recently, Menlo Park started to install a bizarre obstacle course
on Santa Cruz Avenue. I was convinced that the sudden barriers would
force bicyclists (who tend to be favored "beneficiaries" of such plans)
abruptly out into the traffic lane, putting their lives at risks.
Evidently they finally came to their senses, the installation was
interrupted and most of the obstacles removed. (There are still a
few token but gentler obstacles, and the traffic lanes have quite a few
shifts back and forth, but it's far less of a safety hazard than was
the original project.)

Even Palo Alto has gotten somewhat better -- there was a period when
only a maze-trained rat could navigate the streets north of University
Avenue.

ObFood: favorites for inexpensive meals (of order $10) in those three
cities, to complement the mostly higher-cost suggestions given to Tom:
Bangkok Bay (Thai), Gombei (sushi-free Japanese country cooking) and
Andale (new-style taqueria), respectively.

[notbob]

Post by Al Eisner
This fetish of "traffic calming" seems to have infected many city
traffic departments.

May need to try the highly effective approach utilized by a frustrated
Livermore resident who feared for the neighborhood kids. When a wild
speeding punk refused to cease and desist his hotrodding up and down
the usually quiet street, the father waited for the jerk on the next
pass and tossed a truck driveline through his windshield, killing him
instantly. Been pretty quiet on the street ever since.

nb

[Steve Pope]

Post by Al Eisner
This fetish of "traffic calming" seems to have infected many city
traffic departments.

I'm convinced city engineers go to trade conventions, probably
in Vegas, where each year they are presented with the latest
developments in traffic-frustrating devices and methods and
the most devious ways of selling these schemes to unsuspecting
city managers and taxpayers.

Same with transit agencies. They've all suddently bought
low-floor busses at the same time. They couldn't have all
suddenly, independently and validly concluded this is the
thing to do all at the same time, given the variation
in circumstances across transit districts. It has to be a sales job.

S.

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Steve Pope
Same with transit agencies. They've all suddently bought
low-floor busses at the same time.

That even happened in London; Red Ken Livingstone got rid
of the double-decker buses, except for a handful that are
kept around for tourists. They weren't gimp-friendly, you
see.



Geoff

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Al Eisner
This fetish of "traffic calming" seems to have infected many city
traffic departments. It really has little to do with left/right
politics, and more to do with people inventing solutions for non-
existent problems, without thinking them through.

Gentrification ("yuppification") seems to be an element, also. That
would go a long way toward explaining the sudden appearance of "traf-
fic calming devices" in a lot of neighborhoods such as those in down-
town Mountain View. More affluent people tend to be more vocal about
municipal issues than the less well-off. And if they have kids, they
also tend to have a stronger sense of entitlement. "Protect the
CHIIIILLLLDREN!"

Post by Al Eisner
About 5 years ago, based on complaints from a few residents, Redwood
City unveiled a plan to reduce the number of lanes each way from two
to one on a major thoroughfare. No consideration was given to where
the traffic would go instead, nor to the dangerous tailgating likely
to ensue on a steep downhill stretch; and the arguments for this
"solution" seemed specious. It seems not to have occurred to them
that gratuitously annoying drivers is not a way to "calm" traffic.
They called a town-hall meeting to get further feedback -- and were
overwhelmed by an overflowing hall of (mostly) opponents. The plan
hasn't been heard of since.

Was that on Alameda de las Pulgas, by any chance? Or Ghod forbid, on
upper Woodside Road?

Post by Al Eisner
More recently, Menlo Park started to install a bizarre obstacle course
on Santa Cruz Avenue. I was convinced that the sudden barriers would
force bicyclists (who tend to be favored "beneficiaries" of such plans)
abruptly out into the traffic lane, putting their lives at risks.

Oh, but they have a *right* to be in the traffic lane, as any militant
spokehead will be quick to remind you -- even if it means placing their
own safety at risk. After all, "bicycles don't obstruct traffic; bi-
cycles *are* traffic." Like hell they are...

I worked in Menlo Park in the early-to-mid '90s, and I remember that
even then, I was constantly changing lanes when I drove through down-
town on Santa Cruz Avenue. The "through" lane kept turning into a
left- or right-turn-only lane.

ObFood: Is the British W^HBankers' Club still around?



Geoff

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Steve Pope
While I do concur that any Berkeley city government at the time
was leftist/activist, they are much more moderate now, [...]

Insofar as any Berkeley city government _can_ be "moderate"...

Berkely: the only city in the Bay Area with its own foreign policy.
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Berkeley had a "sister city"
relationship with Pyongyang.

Post by Steve Pope
Whether social engineering is generally or usually the province
of leftists, I'm not ready to touch that one.

Well, of course not. It wouldn't be to your advantage to do so.



Geoff

[Steve Pope]

Post by Geoff Miller

Post by Steve Pope
Whether social engineering is generally or usually the province
of leftists, I'm not ready to touch that one.

Well, of course not. It wouldn't be to your advantage to do so.

Sure it is. I just didn't want to have to explain something
so obvious, but I've changed my mind.

It's been asserted that "social engineering" is predominately associated
with the political left. This is incorrect. What is true is
that many commentators use the phrase "social engineering" when
talking about the social policies of the left, but the phrase
can equally be applied to the social policies on the right:
apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and slavery are all examples
of social engineering by rightists.

You can talk all you want about leftist social engineering,
but preponderance of repeated speech does not turn speech
into fact.


Steve

[Max Hauser]

Post by Steve Pope
It's been asserted that "social engineering" is predominately associated
with the political left.
even someone who did not live in Berkeley when the original major
traffic-diverter system arrived (in the 1970s) can still be reasonably
expected to've picked up ... that ... efforts to social-engineer, or even
to "re-shape" human nature, in the 20th century are traditionally
explicitly leftist.

By "explicitly," I meant from politicians and writers who identified
_themselves_ as leftist. This is not some label from me. I did not mean it
as an armchair assertion of some notion I liked, and therefore believed (in
the the yes-it-is, no-it-isn't style so familiar online). Rather, a
reference to something you might know about already, but if not, can
demonstrate to your own satisfaction, if you have unfortunately not done
enough reading of modern history yet, which is where I got it. It's not
about assertions, or even very controversial among leftists who know this
subject matter.

The original posting included a tiny taste (not addressed in reply). Spend
serious time into the history of "Socialist Man" or "centrally planned
economies," or social-engineering advocates like Karl Menninger ("The
political problem ... is to organize human impulses in such a way that they
will direct their energy to the right strategic points"), and see how the
advocates identify themselves. If you have not done so already, which was
how it looked to me. But if not, why are you arguing with me? Those
things are what I referred to. Of course it is very easy to argue, offhand,
against information that doesn't sound nice, as long as it's safely
unfamiliar. People do so constantly online. Even on technical subjects, or
hobbies like wine.

-- Max

--
Excerpt from S. A. Lakoff's summary of socialism in _Dictionary of the
History of Ideas_ (Scribner's, 1973):

Neither the failure of premature and small-scale communitarian experiments
nor initial departures from the ideal by revolutionary regimes are
considered grounds for despair. "Socialist man," it is argued, can only be
expected to make his appearance and keep himself from being corrupted when
socialist institutions are firmly and widely established. Like earlier
millenarians, modern socialists cling to the faith that once the soil is
prepared, a genuine and lasting egalitarianism will become a practical
possibility. ... In this faith lies the essence of the socialist idea.

[At least they don't come door-to-door and hand out tracts. "Initial
departures from the ideal by revolutionary regimes," indeed.]

[Steve Pope]

Post by Max Hauser

Post by Steve Pope
It's been asserted that "social engineering" is predominately associated
with the political left.

No, it's a paraphrase. Dispute it if you like.

Post by Max Hauser

Post by Steve Pope
even someone who did not live in Berkeley when the original major
traffic-diverter system arrived (in the 1970s) can still be reasonably
expected to've picked up ... that ... efforts to social-engineer, or even
to "re-shape" human nature, in the 20th century are traditionally
explicitly leftist.

I didn't write this.

Post by Max Hauser
By "explicitly," I meant from politicians and writers who identified
_themselves_ as leftist. This is not some label from me. I did not mean it
as an armchair assertion of some notion I liked, and therefore believed (in
the the yes-it-is, no-it-isn't style so familiar online). Rather, a
reference to something you might know about already, but if not, can
demonstrate to your own satisfaction, if you have unfortunately not done
enough reading of modern history yet, which is where I got it. It's not
about assertions, or even very controversial among leftists who know this
subject matter.

Not sure. You'd have to idntify which leftists, when, wrote
what. I'm standing against your assertion until then.

Post by Max Hauser
But if not, why are you arguing with me?

Because I disagree with your general statements.

Cheers

Steve

[Steve Pope]

Post by Max Hauser

Post by Steve Pope
It's been asserted that "social engineering" is predominately associated
with the political left.
even someone who did not live in Berkeley when the original major
traffic-diverter system arrived (in the 1970s) can still be reasonably
expected to've picked up ... that ... efforts to social-engineer, or even
to "re-shape" human nature, in the 20th century are traditionally
explicitly leftist.

By "explicitly," I meant from politicians and writers who identified
_themselves_ as leftist.

If one meaning here is that politicians and writers who
explicitly identify themselves as advocating social engineering
are traditionally leftist, then I agree. Not many (if any)
rightist politicians explicitly call it social engineering when
they advocate something along those lines. (But also if so,
then it's not quite the same point as the literal meaning of your
statement above, which I'm less in agreement with, but I admit to
not having a full depth of historical knowledge on this point.)

Cheers,

Steve

[LurfysMa]

Post by Steve Pope
If one meaning here is that politicians and writers who
explicitly identify themselves as advocating social engineering
are traditionally leftist, then I agree. Not many (if any)
rightist politicians explicitly call it social engineering when
they advocate something along those lines.

All politicians are social engineers. They are out to control
(engineer) society. If you happen to agree with them, it's good and
righteous. If not, evil. They all use language geared to rally the
supporters and confuse their detractors. All employ spin. All are
self-serving. Some are more malicious than others. Some are more
ignorant than others.

We get (and deserve) what we vote for (or fail to vote for).

[trippinkpj]

Did anyone mention Top Dog yet? LOL, my husband can't get enough of
those. I order the Chicken Apple or Lemon Chicken sausage and put up
with the cheap date. :-)

[Max Hauser]

Post by trippinkpj
Did anyone mention Top Dog yet?

Yes, a venerated Berkeley institution. Previous mentions on ba.food. (Such
as recently in the Message ID below, which cites the old location at
Shattuck near University, closed after a fire as I recall.)

Libertarianoid clippings on the walls. Sticker "Man Boils at Zero Degrees
Freedom;" newspaper photo of monkey reaching deftly through zoo bars to pick
keys from the pocket of zookeeper lost in conversation. These are
recollections from many years ago, things may have changed. Everyone I knew
went there for the grilled sausages served on fresh rolls (your choice of
several mustards, etc. in dispensers), rather than for the clippings on the
walls, which were however unusual and added color. Also, early test site
for primitive electronic countermeasures (ECM) as detailed below. That was
savory also. news:***@corp.supernews.com

[Steve Pope]

Post by Max Hauser

Post by trippinkpj
Did anyone mention Top Dog yet?

Yes, a venerated Berkeley institution. Previous mentions on ba.food. (Such
as recently in the Message ID below, which cites the old location at
Shattuck near University, closed after a fire as I recall.)

Yes, I happened to be living nearby when that fire occured in
1977, and have a vivid memory of going down to watch it burn,
which I'm sure I've spoken of before once or twice.

Top-dog quality was always top-notch in the 70's and 80's.
I detected a slight drop in sausage quality more recently,
perhaps assoiated with supplier woes, but I seldom enough
go there these days that's I can't give an informed opinion
other than they're worth a try if you'd like a traditional
sausage and don't mind that the meat is industrial-scale sourced.

Steve

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Steve Pope
It's been asserted that "social engineering" is predominately
associated with the political left. This is incorrect. What
is true is that many commentators use the phrase "social
engineering" when talking about the social policies of the
left, but the phrase can equally be applied to the social
policies on the right: apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and
slavery are all examples of social engineering by rightists.

Merely mentioning a handful of forms of social engineering that
are associated with the Right doesn't demonstrate that social
engineering isn't predominantly associated with the Left. There
are extremists at both ends of the political spectrum. It doesn't
follow, however, that certain *forms* of extremism aren't associated
more closely with one side or the other.

Slavery isn't even amenable to the Left-Right dichotomy. It was
an economic phenomenon, not a political one (and one which, I might
add, was practiced by every race on earth at some point in Yoomun
history, not just in the U.S.).

Post by Steve Pope
You can talk all you want about leftist social engineering,
but preponderance of repeated speech does not turn speech
into fact.

The reverse is, of course, also true.



Geoff

[Todd Michel McComb]

There are extremists at both ends of the political spectrum.

There's no need to move to extremism. (I wouldn't exactly call
traffic devices "extreme," say.) Probably the most common way in
which "the right" is accused of "social engineering" is in the
breaks and deductions for families in the tax code. This is the
sort of statement one frequently encounters, and I'm repeating it
for informational purposes only.

[Ernie Klein]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

There are extremists at both ends of the political spectrum.

There's no need to move to extremism. (I wouldn't exactly call
traffic devices "extreme," say.) Probably the most common way in
which "the right" is accused of "social engineering" is in the
breaks and deductions for families in the tax code. This is the
sort of statement one frequently encounters, and I'm repeating it
for informational purposes only.

What breaks and deductions do you mean? If your talking about the child
tax credit, that started in 1993 under Clinton.

The Earned Income Tax Credit started in 1975 (I believe Ford was
President then) and is essentially a form of welfare program for low
income people -- that was an entitlement that the Dem's were, and still
are, very much in favor of since it actually gives a 'refund' to people
that didn't even pay any tax at all in the first place.

If you include the mortgage interest deduction, anyone paying it can
take the deduction, family person, single person, anyone -- and it has
been in place for many years, both Rep & Dem.

Just which "family" deductions do you hold "the right" responsible for?

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Ernie Klein
Just which "family" deductions do you hold "the right" responsible for?

I stand by the statement that what I passed along is commonly said,
or at least commonly heard by me. As far as the details, you'll
have to take it up with someone who cares about the specifics, or
at least someone who believes in ideas like "right" and "left" in
politics. That wouldn't be me.

[Ernie Klein]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Post by Ernie Klein
Just which "family" deductions do you hold "the right" responsible for?

I stand by the statement that what I passed along is commonly said,
or at least commonly heard by me. As far as the details, you'll
have to take it up with someone who cares about the specifics, or
at least someone who believes in ideas like "right" and "left" in
politics. That wouldn't be me.

Me neither. That's why I asked. After I dismiss the few law makers on
the far left and far right, as out of hand, what is left are hard to
tell apart. Call them Republicrats or Democains, not much different.

Both sides pass these laws and the extremes on both sides then point
fingers at the other side when it is to their benefit to do so --
ignoring that they were just as responsible as the other side in the
first place.

[Geoff Miller]

As far as the details, you'll have to take it up with someone
who cares about the specifics, or at least someone who believes
in ideas like "right" and "left" in politics. That wouldn't be me.

Hmm. You don't believe in socioeconomic classes, and you don't
believe in the right-left political continuum. How about gravity?

ObFood: I found a Trader Joe's item that I believe I'll put into
the rotation: dark-chocolate-covered espresso beans.



Geoff

[Todd Michel McComb]

You don't believe in socioeconomic classes, and you don't believe
in the right-left political continuum. How about gravity?

Hey, what with the lack of a theory of quantum gravity, who knows?

More seriously, or at least a little more, I don't believe that the
criteria the self-identified middle class uses to judge "class"
assesses much class-related other than whether the assessor is
middle class. That's not at all the same as not believing in
socioeconomic classes, although it's admittedly more involved.

The idea that there's a one-dimensional spectrum of political opinion
certainly exists, as an idea and even as an actor in the contemporary
world, but I think it's pretty silly. I certainly don't find it
helpful in relating my own views. Almost-funny story on that one:
One of those political research companies recently called to ask
some tiresome questions about Indian casinos, and one of the final
"we just want to gauge to whom we're speaking" questions was "Do
you consider yourself more conservative, more liberal, or more
moderate?" I chose "none of the above" perhaps to the bewilderment
of the caller.

[Al Eisner]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

You don't believe in socioeconomic classes, and you don't believe
in the right-left political continuum. How about gravity?

Gravity pulls people together -- must be leftist.

Post by Todd Michel McComb
Hey, what with the lack of a theory of quantum gravity, who knows?
More seriously, or at least a little more, I don't believe that the
criteria the self-identified middle class uses to judge "class"
assesses much class-related other than whether the assessor is
middle class. That's not at all the same as not believing in
socioeconomic classes, although it's admittedly more involved.
The idea that there's a one-dimensional spectrum of political opinion
certainly exists, as an idea and even as an actor in the contemporary
world, but I think it's pretty silly. I certainly don't find it
One of those political research companies recently called to ask
some tiresome questions about Indian casinos, and one of the final
"we just want to gauge to whom we're speaking" questions was "Do
you consider yourself more conservative, more liberal, or more
moderate?" I chose "none of the above" perhaps to the bewilderment
of the caller.

Too many surveys are so badly designed that the latter is the only
appropriate answer to some questions. Unfortunately, I suspect they
throw out your entire set of responses when you give that one.

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
There's no need to move to extremism. (I wouldn't exactly call
traffic devices "extreme," say.)

Point taken.

Post by Todd Michel McComb
Probably the most common way in which "the right" is accused of
"social engineering" is in the breaks and deductions for families
in the tax code.

I keep hearing about a "marriage penalty" where income tax is concerned.



Geoff

[Steve Pope]

Post by Geoff Miller

Post by Steve Pope
It's been asserted that "social engineering" is predominately
associated with the political left. This is incorrect. What
is true is that many commentators use the phrase "social
engineering" when talking about the social policies of the
left, but the phrase can equally be applied to the social
policies on the right: apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and
slavery are all examples of social engineering by rightists.

Merely mentioning a handful of forms of social engineering that
are associated with the Right doesn't demonstrate that social
engineering isn't predominantly associated with the Left.

You're right. And I'm not out to demonstrate anything.
My belief that community-level traffic barriers are largely the
province of the political right is observation, not demonstration.

Post by Geoff Miller
Slavery isn't even amenable to the Left-Right dichotomy. It was
an economic phenomenon, not a political one (and one which, I might
add, was practiced by every race on earth at some point in Yoomun
history, not just in the U.S.).

Here I disagree. When the practice of slavery by Europeans/Americans
became a political issue, those on the left opposed it and those
on the right favored it. Leftists act on behalf of workers;
slaves are workers. Slavery, by that I mean slavery that was
practiced in progenitor societies to ours, was rightist.

Steve

[Max Hauser]

Berkely: the only city in the Bay Area with its own foreign policy. It
wouldn't surprise me to learn that Berkeley had a "sister city"
relationship with Pyongyang.

No problem, because Berkeley is a Nuclear Free Zone.

When that sign appeared on a road into town in the late 1980s, I wrote to a
well-known national newspaper to express my great relief. Henceforth, any
discharge of nuclear weapons within city limits faced the full weight and
force of the Berkeley City Code.

[Steve Pope]

Post by Max Hauser
No problem, because Berkeley is a Nuclear Free Zone.
When that sign appeared on a road into town in the late 1980s, I wrote to a
well-known national newspaper to express my great relief. Henceforth, any
discharge of nuclear weapons within city limits faced the full weight and
force of the Berkeley City Code.

There's a practical impact in that companies doing business
in Berkeley could not, in theory, become subcontractors
on Department of Energy projects involving weapons. I do
not know of this theory ever being tested.

Steve

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Steve Pope
I'm not so sure, Berkeley is veering ever further to the political
right. Look at all the "traffic calmers" going in. Ran across two
new ones in west Berkeley just today. Isn't it rightist to dictate
exacty which routes one may take through town?

No, it's extremely leftist. Leftism is first and foremost about
controlling what people do. That's why big government is commonly
associated with the Democratic Party.

More specifically, leftists tend to be hostile to the automobile.
That's lergely for environmental reasons, but additionally because
they believe they're hierarchical and un-egalitarian, competing and
conflict with their oh-so-morally-superior bicycles (not to mention
pedestrians).

And certainly not least of all, the automobile is the most powerful
symbol of individual choice and discretion there is, and so is an
affront to the leftist's controlling urge.



Geoff

[Steve Pope]

Post by Geoff Miller
Leftism is first and foremost about
controlling what people do.

So the right-wing mind-controllers would like you to believe.

Post by Geoff Miller
That's why big government is commonly
associated with the Democratic Party.

Not big Homeland Security agencies, our of whose budget I'm
laying bets the federal subsidies for these traffic diverters
are coming.

Steve

[Geoff Miller]

Steve Pope <***@speedymail.org> writes:

: Leftism is first and foremost about controlling what people do.

Post by Steve Pope
So the right-wing mind-controllers would like you to believe.

Nice attempt at diversion.


: That's why big government is commonly associated with the
: Democratic Party.

Post by Steve Pope
Not big Homeland Security agencies, our of whose budget I'm
laying bets the federal subsidies for these traffic diverters
are coming.

Let me get this straight: the Department Of Homeland Security was
created by a Republican administration, therefore big government
*isn't* commonly associated with the Democratic Party? I'm afraid
you can't get there from here, deductively speaking.

You remind me of a liberal friend of mine whose reflexive retort
to any unflattering observation about liberals or Democrats boils
down to "B-but...the [conservatives/Republicans] do it too!"

Of course, as I've pointed out to him about a thousand times, if
two groups do something, then it obviously becomes a question of
which group does it *more.* And by that quite reasonable stan-
dard, big government is far more strongly associated with the Dems
than with the Republicans, the Bush aberration notwithstanding.



Geoff

[Steve Pope]

Post by Geoff Miller
: That's why big government is commonly associated with the
: Democratic Party.

Post by Steve Pope
Not big Homeland Security agencies, our of whose budget I'm
laying bets the federal subsidies for these traffic diverters
are coming.

Let me get this straight: the Department Of Homeland Security was
created by a Republican administration, therefore big government
*isn't* commonly associated with the Democratic Party?

Big government is associated with both major parties roughly
equally, but starting from Reagan in 1980 it has been more
associated with the Republicans. "Free spending Democrats"
was valid as a specific accusation during, say, Johnson but
not for the past couple decades.

Steve

[Max Hauser]

Big government is associated with both major parties roughly equally, but
starting from Reagan in 1980 it has been more associated with the
Republicans.

Agreed. Huge budget increases, deficit spending. "Fiscal liberalism." (I
do mean the phrase in the technical sense.)

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Steve Pope
Big government is associated with both major parties roughly
equally, but starting from Reagan in 1980 it has been more
associated with the Republicans. "Free spending Democrats"
was valid as a specific accusation during, say, Johnson but
not for the past couple decades.

"Big government" means more than just spending; it implies involve-
ment and control.

Moreover, the boom in defense spending during the Reagan era was an
aberration, a special case with a specific objective: overwhelming
and eventually bankrupting the Soviet Union. The Democratic Party
has historically been far more associated with spending *and* con-
trol thanks to its obsession with social programs.



Geoff

[Steve Pope]

Post by Geoff Miller

Post by Steve Pope
Big government is associated with both major parties roughly
equally, but starting from Reagan in 1980 it has been more
associated with the Republicans. "Free spending Democrats"
was valid as a specific accusation during, say, Johnson but
not for the past couple decades.

"Big government" means more than just spending; it implies involve-
ment and control.

That's a little weasel-y. So if the Republicans spend just
as much, but in an uncontrolled fashion i.e. they and their friends
have their hands in the till, Halliburton-style, that's not
"big government" because they're not using the spending to "control".

Uh-huh.

You're almost right. Currently we definitely have "small governance".

Steve

[Dan Abel]

Post by Geoff Miller
Of course, as I've pointed out to him about a thousand times, if
two groups do something, then it obviously becomes a question of
which group does it *more.* And by that quite reasonable stan-
dard, big government is far more strongly associated with the Dems
than with the Republicans, the Bush aberration notwithstanding.

Unquestionably, the Demos are more strongly associated with big
government than the Repubs. Just ask the Repubs. They'll be happy to
tell you that, over and over again, until people actually believe it. I
think most Repubs believe it also. The truth, of course, is irrelevant
to them. From Enron to the S&L debacle, the Repubs are running things
to suit themselves, all the while crying out about "big government" and
"handouts", which they, of course are receiving.

[Geoff Miller]

Post by Dan Abel
Unquestionably, the Demos are more strongly associated with big
government than the Repubs. Just ask the Repubs. They'll be happy to
tell you that, over and over again, until people actually believe it. I
think most Repubs believe it also. The truth, of course, is irrelevant
to them. From Enron to the S&L debacle, the Repubs are running things
to suit themselves, all the while crying out about "big government" and
"handouts", which they, of course are receiving.

What do Enron and and the S&L thing have to do with the Republican Party?
Some (and perhaps most) of the principals in those affairs may have been
Republicans, but that isn't the same thing as the affairs' having been
orchestrated by the GOP.



Geoff

[Ciccio]

Post by Charlotte L. Blackmer
If you're referring to me, Coach, it's "pink" not "pinko"

Cara Carlotta... You and I know, that I know, that you are both.

A pink pliant pleasure...

Ciccio